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Based on this shiur from R. Sobolofsky, chocolate chip challah is no different from chocolate babka or other cake and thus has the bracha of mezonos

If that is the case, one would only be able to make ha-motzei on such challah if he is koevia seudah on it. According to R. Yaakov Luban's article "The Mezonos Roll... Is It a Piece of Cake?", footnote 8, there are three ways in which one can be koveiah seudah on mezonos:

  1. You eat an average person's full meal's worth of just that mezonos.
  2. You eat what is enough for you personally to be satisfied for an entire meal.
  3. You treat the mezonos as bread and eat enough of it along with other foods to be equivalent in amount to a regular meal with bread and other foods.

So the problem is: if you hold position 1) or 2), there might not be enough of the mezonos for you to fulfill the requirement (especially at a large dinner where everyone just gets the usual kazayis size piece of challah). So what should one do?

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  • @ShmuelBrill That's position 3. He's asking according to positions 1 and 2 in the question which AFAIK are more mainstream. So goes to show what one thinks is mainstream and not :)
    – Double AA ♦
    Commented Jan 11, 2012 at 2:15
  • What would you do if your host served something you don't think is kosher eg chalav stam, non glatt meat, chodosh, turkey etc. ? It probably depends how bad you think the food in question is and how offensive it will be for you to avoid eating it.
    – Double AA ♦
    Commented Jan 11, 2012 at 4:15
  • @DoubleAA: I think this is a different question from kashrus. Here the question impacts one's ability to fulfill the mitzvah of seudas Shabbos (and perhaps even kiddush). The kashrus question is, like you say, a question of deciding what you can avoid and what you can't (unless the kashrus is so bad you must avoid everything?). But you can't really avoid having a seudah.
    – Curiouser
    Commented Jan 11, 2012 at 4:54
  • @Curiouser First of all, I think it's the same question, just with it being not so bad to eat the food and very embarrassing to skip the whole seudah. The question is, was this really kiddush bemakom seudah because if not, you can't eat anything yet as you haven't heard kiddush! You see that not being able to eat everything can be talui on the kashrut issues of very few products. Fulfilling the positive commandment of seudot shabbat is more of a side point as usually you can find some bread or matza later at home.
    – Double AA ♦
    Commented Jan 11, 2012 at 5:11
  • 2
    Dear OP: These are not three mutually exclusive Positions. Really, these are three Cases. If any of the three Cases come up, then you must wash and say hamotzi on a mezonos item. You seem to be arguing that, in Case 3, you shouldn't wash or say hamotzi. But R' Luban implies that the Mishnah Berurah says that, in Case 3, you must wash and say hamotzi. Are you saying that the Mishnah Berurah is wrong? And if so, why is he wrong? Please edit the question to clarify it, then ping me.
    – unforgettableidSupportsMonica
    Commented Nov 7, 2013 at 6:27

3 Answers 3

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I think you can just rely on it being hamotzi for many reasons:

  • It is a chidush of the shulchan aruch in the first place that the category of pas haba b'kisnin is so broad, many rishonim would have made hamotzi even on babka.

  • I didn't listen to the shiur, but I would guess that some might argue that chocolate chip challah is not the same as babka since it is still intended to be bread and is being used as bread by people.

  • "Position 3" is likely the main position one should follow. Especially when one is clearly being kovea seudah with his meal (and eating something so bread-like), it makes sense to make hamotzi.

Btw, the gemara suggests that the host give out large pieces of challah, so they shouldn't just be a kezayis.

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  • 1
    The question assumes that the person does not hold position 3, and it assumes that R. Sobolofky's psak is correct, as well as the Shulchan Aruch's psak about pas haba b'kisnin. So I'm not sure how any of your points helps.
    – Curiouser
    Commented Jan 11, 2012 at 4:52
  • He's saying that even R Sobolofsky would agree to be meikil because it's such a sha'at hadechak. [I don't mean he's actually quoting R Sobolofsky...] If you are sooo sure about your psak than there is no question: you simply cannot eat anything till they bring you real bread or more chocolate chip challah (or some more other cake/cracker) so that you can have kiddush bemakom seudah.
    – Double AA ♦
    Commented Jan 11, 2012 at 5:14
  • @Curiouser, few people have such strong views against 'position 3', i think Artscroll brachos book says it depends on the food being eaten, so this would be a 'position 3' case. i doubt a posek would say u can't be yotzei with a hamotzi in such a situation, esp. considering that making a mezonos is prob. a bigger kula.
    – Ariel K
    Commented Jan 11, 2012 at 5:27
  • Ariel, what is your source for your first bullet? I recall from R'Moshe (I need to find where) that those deserts cited by the SA were actually bread that had a filling or other taste added, but everyone would agree that our cakes are pas haba b'kisnin.
    – YDK
    Commented Jan 11, 2012 at 5:32
  • @ArielK: I appreciate your logic, but I really would like sources for "few people would say" etc. Poskim do pasken like certain positions and many Jews follow specific poskim consistently, so it's not really a fair answer to argue against my question unless you have evidence that position 3 really is so dominant to overrule the others.
    – Curiouser
    Commented Jan 11, 2012 at 5:53
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Based on the information provided I think you really only have one option.

Ask the host if they have any plain bread. To avoid insulting the host, avoid eating any chocolate during the entire meal.

If they do not have any bread, then eat the rest of the meal, and be sure to say a bracha before each item.

When you get home, or leave, or you go back to shul, see if you can get yourself a small "Seuda"

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  • Why can't you eat the chocolate chip bread for ha-motzi, and ask for some plain bread separately?
    – wfb
    Commented Nov 7, 2013 at 16:50
  • @wfb because you didn't say the bracha for it. This is all assuming that you find choclate chip chalah to not be bread.
    – avi
    Commented Nov 17, 2013 at 9:10
  • Shouldn't matter if you are kove'a seudah, by eating it with bread at the meal, no?
    – wfb
    Commented Nov 17, 2013 at 16:09
  • @wfb if you are kove'a seudah with the 'cake' then why do you need the bread?
    – avi
    Commented Nov 17, 2013 at 16:49
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You wash and say hamotzi and you do not embarrass your host. Just because you are frum does not mean that you can't be a mensch.

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    A source that this is correct behaviour would enhance the quality of this answer.
    – Danny Schoemann
    Commented Dec 20, 2015 at 9:49
  • Presumably this would not be the case if the host was serving pork. How do you qualify that? Where did you get this from?
    – LiquidMetal
    Commented Oct 2, 2016 at 17:00

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