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Shalom to all.

I am not sure how to pronounce the following word, which comes up in prayer (e.g. in Tehillim 130): שׁוֹמְרִים.

On one hand, I learned that Sheva after big vowels (Patach, Ṣere…) is independent. Based on this the pronunciation would be “shoMErim”.

On another hand, I’ve heard some people read this word as “shoMrim,” with a silent Sheva.

Which is correct? Please explain. Are there exceptions to the rule? Thank you.

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    A common grammatical mistake in that verse is to put the major pause on לַ֝בֹּ֗קֶר instead of on לַאדֹנָ֑י
    – Double AA
    Commented Aug 28 at 14:58
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    Tangential, but patach is not generally classified as a long vowel.
    – Joel K
    Commented Aug 28 at 15:09
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    The rules for sheva are here: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shva Commented Aug 28 at 16:50
  • Joel can u explain pl
    – Angie
    Commented Aug 29 at 17:42
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    Two minor points: First, the correct term for what you call a “big vowel” is “long vowel”. Second, as @JoelK points out, Patach is a short vowel, not a long vowel. Kamatz Gadol, on the other hand, is a long vowel. I suggest editing your question to incorporate the above.
    – Qwertrl
    Commented Nov 20 at 22:19

2 Answers 2

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It’s a Shva na`.

Many people, especially in certain Ashkenazic communities, ignore the rules of Shva. Shva isn’t such an important vowel, so this (usually) isn’t problematic, but it’s not accurate either.

(Note: There is a scholarly opinion that this kind of Shva was silent in the Tiberian Masoretic tradition. Even if that was case, we don’t follow that rule today, so it’s irrelevant; and if it were relevant, we'd have to be extra careful with vowel length distinctions).

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    Who said "we don’t follow that rule today"?
    – Double AA
    Commented Aug 28 at 14:59
  • @DoubleAA Every Tikkun/Chumash I’ve opened that’s either marked vocalic Shva or provided a list of rules for when Shva is vocalic.
    – Qwertrl
    Commented Aug 28 at 15:00
  • As you noted, many people get these things wrong.
    – Double AA
    Commented Aug 28 at 15:07
  • @DoubleAA I meant the normal people who aren’t taught this stuff, not Hebrew linguists and scholars who learn it. (At least, not any I’m aware of).
    – Qwertrl
    Commented Aug 28 at 15:16
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    @Kazibácsi I don't know who your "we all" is, but some of those are certainly not universally accepted.
    – magicker72
    Commented Sep 26 at 13:46
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It's a bit complicated because sometimes rules conflict, for example שַׁרְבִיט, there's one rule that shva followed by a בּ is silent and followed by a ב is vocal, but usually a shva that closed patach is silent so this case is complicated, or in a case like מַלְכֵי vs מַלְכִּי, or similarly in וַתְּכַבֵּד what is type of dagesh is the תּ? It cannot be תּ because the patach makes it a closed syllable and a closed syllable it has to be rapha, It cannot be ת because because it has to open the syllable to be a vocal shva, and the כ rapha demands a vocal shva before it. In your case probably is vocal because it's after a long vowel. In a shva after the qamets in שָׁ֫מְרוּ there seems to be an argument if silent or pronounced, if this qamets is considered long

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    Welcome to MiYodeya Josh and thanks for this first answer. Since MY is different from other sites you might be used to, see here for a guide which might help understand the site. Great to have you learn with us!
    – mbloch
    Commented Sep 6 at 3:11
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    Not sure what’s uncertain about ותכבד? If the tav had a sheva nach then wouldn’t you expect the kaf to take a dagesh?
    – Joel K
    Commented Sep 6 at 5:07
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    The first two are good examples of exceptions, but I don’t see how they are relevant. The last example (ותכבד) is just completely false.
    – Qwertrl
    Commented Sep 26 at 11:27
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    @Josh Wouldn’t you have the same issue with the ת in ותעל? That is should be rapha in order to close the first syllable of the word?
    – Joel K
    Commented Oct 1 at 7:09
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    @Josh How can the dagesh in the tav in ותכבד be kal? What is closing the previous syllable?
    – Joel K
    Commented Oct 1 at 8:13

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