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Do we believe that (nowadays at least) there’s 100% proof that Hashem exists and it’s a mitzvah to go and discover that proof and “know” that there’s a G-d, or do we believe that, although many signs might point to it, there’s no actual 100% proof Hashem exists but rather we have faith that He does.

During let’s say the midbar times, when the people actually saw G-d, there you’d say that they had 100% proof. But nowadays, do we believe there’s 100% solid proof out there and that we must seek it out, or is our faith simply “blind faith”

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  • Chovos haLevavos, Gate 1, sections 5-6 tried to bring the proofs, but it might not be sufficient for the modern standards of rigor.
    – Y DJ
    Commented Aug 18 at 4:04
  • @YDJ thanks I just briefly read it and yeah that was part of our debate. Basically we were debating whether proofs like that (that something can’t come from nothing) constitute 100% proof of Gd and it’s a mitzvah to rationalize them in your head, or whether they’re simply compelling proofs but not 100% and therefore we simply rely on blind faith Commented Aug 18 at 4:12
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    Your question is a false dichotomy. The people of the midbar had 100% proof, so we have historical proof, which is far more than blind faith.
    – N.T.
    Commented Aug 18 at 6:46
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    @YDJ According to almost all opinions, the first mitzvah is to know that Hashem exists based on the revelation at Sinai. According to many opinions, it includes an obligation to know intellectual proofs for Hashem's existence.
    – N.T.
    Commented Aug 18 at 6:47
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    @RabbiKaii See also library.alhatorah.org/… Where Ramban says the Bahag has a negative commandment to not forget Hashem, which corresponds to Anochi. While there he uses the term Emunah, the Ramban writes at the end of his dispute with the Church (and also in his work Emunah uBitachon) that Emunah requires intellectual knowledge as a prerequisite.
    – N.T.
    Commented Aug 19 at 15:51

3 Answers 3

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The Rambam held that the 13 Articles of Faith needed to be accepted because of proofs. Not "believed", not accepted because you were taught them by an authority figure or read them in a book. But each person should be able to prove them for themselves. (Igeres Taiman)

R Chaim Heller noted in his translation of Sefer haMitzvos (1914) that the Rambam uses the Judeo-Arabic word "itakad", which means "knowledge". R Yosef el-Qafih, commonly known as Rav Kapach (of the Yemenite community) has a similar footnote in his translation (1994).

One could ascribe to the element of the Rambam's position that emunah is knowledge without agreeing to the facet of his position that you asked about -- that knowledge is most centrally something you can prove. At least, not in the sense of a philosophical proof.

Perhaps the most famous line in Epistemology is Plato's definition of "knowledge" as "a justified true belief." (That definition is flawed, most famously by the Gettier Problem, but it's still the basis of all such discussion.) There are other ways to justify belief than Philosophical Proof.

Before the Rambam, Rav Yehudah haLevi (Kuzari sec. 1) even belittles the entire concept of philosophically proving this kind of thing. In his dialog, he has the Rabbi say (1:13):

That which you describe is religion based on speculation and system, the research of thought, but open to many doubts. Now ask the philosophers, and thou will find that they do not agree on one set of actions or one principle, since some doctrines can be established by arguments, which are only partially satisfactory, and still much less capable of being proved.

And later in that section (1:63), he pardons the Greek philosophers for their errors in that they lacked a tradition and had to rely on a second-best -- philosophical deduction:

There is an excuse for the Philosophers. Being Grecians, science and religion did not come to them as inheritances. They belong to the descendants of Japheth, who inhabited the north, whilst that knowledge coming from Adam, and supported by the divine influence, is only to be found among the progeny of Shem, who represented the successors of Noah and constituted, as it were, his essence. This knowledge has always been connected with this essence, and will always remain so...

Skipping out of our tradition and ahead to Modern Philosophy...

This skepticism about the perfection of proof becomes fundamental to the Empiricists, who believed that only experience of the outside world can produce reliable knowledge. And then it really came to the fore with Immanuel Kant, who denied our ability to experience what's really "out there" altogether. That because everything we experience and think are shaped by pre-existing human categories, the way people work, none of it is real and objective. We only know the world of phenomena, how things look to humans, and only can reason with those more limited givens.

And this progresses through the Existentialists and the Post-Moderns. So that today, in most College Liberal Arts departments, there is no concept of objective truth altogether. Never mind being able to prove things.

I think the Kuzari's argument would be classified today as a kind of Reliabilism. We trust our Tradition because it comes from sources that have proved themselves reliable in the past. Which is a way to justify belief, so -- contrary to the Rambam -- today's philosophers would consider trusting a fact because you were taught it bey someone you trust would be considered knowledge.

Another possible justification could be first-hand experience. And I think this happens far more often today. Someone experiences their first Shabbos. It agrees with them, provides meaning to their lives. I don't just mean the aesthetics, that they enjoyed themselves, but the experience itself -- the thing they enjoyed. Like the way mathematicians are likely to agree on what makes a proof "beautiful" or "elegant", there is an objective feature they are identifying and giving an aethetic judgement about. That math proof, or living that Shabbos, has the features one expects of truth.

Or, when you learn something about the laws of property that somehow has implications in the laws of Shabbos and resolve what seemed to have been an unrelated question. Truth works like that, not invented systems. If this happens to someone when learning Torah often enough, they stop wondering whether or not they can prove the Torah is from Hashem. Or whether halakhah as we now practice it, which is largely a product of a system, is a product of the system Hashem gave us at Sinai. It seems obviously so.

The experience of living Judaism as justification for the givens assumed by the Judaism lived.

Speaking for myself. I do believe a philosophical proof does exist. But, just to frustrate the Rambam, I don't think we could identify it. We have too many of what Mussarists call "negi'os", personal ulterior motives, that color our vision. Our ideas of what is a self-evident given that could be used as a postulate for an argument start getting subjective as soon as we go much beyond "x = x". Similarly, our sense of which questions refute the whole argument or are interesting little side challenges that could be shelved for later. They all are so colored by what we want the answer to be that a person couldn't identify a solid argument for or against their position.

Not when dealing with something we are so emotionally invested in as a question that changes how we live our lives.

Or, to rephrase as a Truism:
The mind is a wonderful organ
for proving conclusions
the heart already reached.

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  • What is the difference between this "proof" that you say the Rambam believes is the definition of belief (when you say "the 13 Articles of Faith needed to be accepted because of proofs") and the "philosophical proof" that you say the Rambam doesn't necessarily hold by? (The Rambam's definition of the term is by the way in More Nevuchim 1:50: דע, אתה המעיין במאמרי זה, כי ההאמנה אינה העניין הנאמר בפה, אבל העניין המצוייר בנפש, כשיאמינו בו שהוא כן כמו שיצוייר...)
    – b a
    Commented Sep 8 at 15:35
  • If I said the Rambam didn't hold of the need for philosophical proof, there is a typo.somewhere. I did say that R Yehudah haLevi in the Kuzari says that one doesn't need philosophical proof and that they don't work anyway. and that this element of the Kuzari's thought is more consistent with modern philosophies. Even if we accept, like the Rambam, that we are to know and not just believe, there are justifications other than being able to build a philosophical argument. Commented Sep 9 at 7:42
  • You said (in the answer) "One could ascribe to the Rambam's position that emunah is knowledge without holding... that knowledge is... something you can prove... in the sense of a philosophical proof"; and (in your comment) "Even if we accept... the Rambam... there are justifications other than... philosophical argument." What is this non-philosophical proof or non-philosophical justification, or what would be an example of it, that fulfills the Rambam's understanding of believing in God?
    – b a
    Commented Sep 9 at 13:16
  • I meant that the someone could agree with the Rambam that emunah means knowledge while disagreeing with him that philosophical proof is the only or even most sure way to gain knowledge. And that's why I then get into other ways of justifying belief, so that one's emunah is knowledge, not faith. I will try an edit. Please let me know if it is clearer now Commented Sep 9 at 17:29
  • Clear. But then, at the end of your answer you're arguing against what we just agreed is the view of the Rambam (or its applicability to us)? If the Rambam (I think also the Kuzari, in his way) says the mitzva is to believe in God by a specific kind of reasoning, on what basis do you say we can't? If because of biases, isn't overcoming biases part of the duty we would have anyway by any kind of view equating emuna with knowledge?
    – b a
    Commented Sep 10 at 2:11
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The Rambam in Hilchot Yesodei Hatora Chapter 1, Halacha 1 says "יְסוֹד הַיְסוֹדוֹת וְעַמּוּד הַחָכְמוֹת לֵידַע שֶׁיֵּשׁ שָׁם מָצוּי רִאשׁוֹן" "The foundation of all foundations and the pillar of wisdom is to know that there is a Prime Cause"

Apparently the Rambam holds it is a Mitzvah to prove the existence of God.

The Rambam himself provides a demonstration from the science of his times to prove God. Apparently he holds that in each time we would need to look to the physical world to reach a point in our understanding that would demonstrate the existence of God.

Here is a link to modern approach to "prove" God. https://www.physicstogod.com/

They do an excellent job of demonstrating a "proof" for the existence of God.

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There is no proof that God exists, and there cannot be one. It's 100% a matter of faith. You can never be sure that what you see and experience is not the work of a powerful alien with super-advanced technology, who has no more answers to ultimate questions than we do.

Think how easy it would be to convince a primitive islander of 500 years ago that you are God. You land in a helicopter, cure his sick with antibiotics, use a machine gun or a grenade to show him who is boss, magnify your voice with a loudspeaker, etc.

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    Maybe there is such a proof and it hasn't been discovered yet?
    – Double AA
    Commented Aug 18 at 17:23
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    @YDJ I don't know. Maybe someone else will figure it out one day
    – Double AA
    Commented Aug 18 at 17:51
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    @DoubleAA -- Go back and review Philosophy 101: You can't prove a negative and should not have to. Commented Aug 18 at 20:42
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    @DoubleAA -- What is this "negative" you want me to prove against all logic? I never said there is no God. I said belief in God is purely a matter of faith. Mine too. That's why we say Ani maamin be-emunah shelemah... -- I believe with perfect faith. Do you read messages before downvoting or just go by the name of the author? Commented Aug 18 at 21:39
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    "There is no proof that God exists" First line in the post is a negative.
    – Double AA
    Commented Aug 18 at 21:53

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