If you plant a seed shortly before the end of shabbat (zoraya) and then un-bury it after shabbat, or you put an uncooked food into an oven and then take it out within seconds without it having baked (ofeh). Have you transgressed a melacha or not?
asked Dec 27, 2012 at 4:23
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2Or if you turn on and off a light? ;)– HodofHodCommented Dec 27, 2012 at 4:53
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@HodofHod What melacha is involved in turning off a light? There's no charcoal created so at best it's kibui sheino tzarich legufo.– Double AA ♦Commented Dec 27, 2012 at 5:10
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2@DoubleAA I didn't mean that there was one, I was giving an example of one that's relatively common.– HodofHodCommented Dec 27, 2012 at 5:12
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1see the igley tal, it's a machlokes– user2110Commented Dec 27, 2012 at 14:34
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I'd also like to know if this means that planting the seed (or turning on the oven) was permitted b'dieved.– SAHCommented Aug 20, 2014 at 16:02
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3 Answers
One of the principles enumerated by the Tif'eres Yisra'el in Kalkeles Shabbas to be liable is that the mal'achah done has to endure; if it doesn't endure, he is not liable for it (though it is still forbidden). However, he says that for some mel'achos, among them planting, one is liable for them even if it doesn't endure. (I did read in the name of the Aruch that a person is liable for planting even only if it endures; however, I can't remember where I read that and I can't find a reference to that Aruch.)
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Maybe you aren't liable--but the action is still rabbinically prohibited, right?– SAHCommented Aug 26, 2014 at 22:41
this is a famous dispute between the Minchas Chinuch and the Rashash in Shabbos (73a)- the Minchas Chinuch says that if one removed the seed before the zriah he is still liable, however the rashash says one is not liable, the rashash compares to the din of baking, that if one stopped the baking before it was finsihed one is not liable for bishul, since the melocho is the finised product of the baking. (see the Iglei Tal on the Minchas Chinuch)
This is the Minchas Chinuch:
answered Aug 25, 2014 at 17:48
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"Before the zriah"="Before the planting"? What does it mean to remove a seed "before the planting"?– SAHCommented Aug 26, 2014 at 22:29
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In short, no you have not been mechallel shabbos. However there's an issur d'rabonon in both cases. In the case of putting something into the oven, the food has to reach "ochel Ben deurso". Which is about 1/3 cooked in order to violate shabbos. In the case of the seed it's trickier aside from the rabbinic prohibition of handling the seed (because it's muktzeh) it can be more severe. If your intent was to take it out before it sprouted roots, then you wouldn't be obligated to bring a sin offering (meaning it's only a rabbinical prohibition which is under not doing half melachos.) however If your intention was for it to sprout roots then you WOULD have indeed been mechallel shabbos. Because the normal way to seed is to plant seeds into the ground and wait past that day for it to sprout roots.
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1Hi, I like your answer, but can you be a little clearer about which "prohibitions" and "violations" you mention are Rabbinic vs. Biblical? For example:– SAHCommented Aug 26, 2014 at 22:31
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1"In the case of putting something into the oven, the food has to reach "ochel Ben deurso". Which is about 1/3 cooked in order to violate shabbos. " =d'rabanan or d'oraita?/ "If your intent was to take it out before it sprouted roots, then you wouldn't be obligated to bring a sin offering (meaning it's only a rabbinical prohibition which is under not doing half melachos.)"--What is the rabbinical prohibition besides muktzeh?/ "however If your intention was for it to sprout roots then you WOULD have indeed been mechallel shabbos." =Biblically?– SAHCommented Aug 26, 2014 at 22:31
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Whenever I say "violate shabbos" or "chillul shabbos" I'm talking about biblical prohibitions. You don't use those terms by rabbinic prohibitions. Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 6:10
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Really? Does "mechalel Shabbos" also refer only to Biblical? ....If so, how do we refer to rabbinical violations of Shabbat? Thanks– SAHCommented Aug 28, 2014 at 2:59
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1We refer to rabbinic prohibitions as "shvusim" not "chillul " the reason being is that to be mechallel shabbos it has to be pikuach nefesh, however for shvusim it doesn't have to be pikuach nefesh. Different shvusim could be waived for different reasons. So as not to confuse the public and to have better clarity they are labeled differently. Commented Aug 30, 2014 at 0:09