I heard this a few times. Is it true that Rabbi Moshe Dovid Valle (aka the Ramad Vali, Ramdu) said that the Jesus was a failed Mashiach ben Yosef? If so, please provide sources.

  • Aren't we all? (or at least all those who are descendants of yosef) Is the chiddush here that jesus was a descendant of yosef even though he hailed from beit lechem yehuda?
    – Double AA
    Commented Mar 13, 2023 at 14:51
  • I advise you to listen to this wonderful Shiur of HaRav Bezalel Naor on the subject of the difference between false Messaiah and fallen Messaiah, a lot of resources are cited : youtube.com/…
    – Didier S
    Commented Jan 28 at 17:52
  • Don’t Christians claim Yoshke was from Beis David? Is this confusing his supposed ancestry with the fact that his mother’s husband was named Joseph?
    – ezra
    Commented Jan 28 at 22:04

1 Answer 1


Yes. See Sefer Halikutim, part 1, p. 242:

"ומב"ד בא לעשות שלום בעולם ולא מלחמה, הפך ליש"ו הנוצרי שאמר מעצמו: לא באתי לעשות שלום בעולם אלא מלחמה. וגם הוא בודאי היה סוד משיח בן יוסף, אע"פ שהיה ממזר, כי ממזר ת"ח קודם לכהן גדול עם הארץ. אלא שלא היה אז העת הראוי, כי היתה שנאת חנם בישראל, ולכן נתקלקל ונתאחז בו ס"מ והשמידו ונצלב."

Translation: "And Mashiach ben David comes to bring peace to the world and not war, the opposite of Jesus the Christian who said himself: I did not come to bring peace to the world, but war. And he, too, was certainly a sod of Mashiach ben Yosef, despite being a mamzer, because a mamzer talmid chacham comes before an ignoramus kohen gadol. But the time was not yet right, because there was great hatred in Yisrael, and because of this he went bad and the Satan held on to him and destroyed him and he was crucified."

  • What does it mean that a mamzer Talmud chachamim comes before an ignoramus kohen gadol? How can an ignoramus become the kohen gadol but even for a regular kohen a yisroel should not receive an aliya first unless when he started the bracha there was no Cohen present?
    – Dude
    Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 11:56
  • 2
    @Dude In the time of the second Beis Hamikdash many people purchased the position of Kohen Gadol.
    – N.T.
    Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 12:16
  • 3
    @Dude it's a quote from Mishna Horayot 3:8. As N.T. wrote, the position was made purchasable in the 2nd Temple era by Antiochus and later Herod and the Romans and not all of the buyers were talmidei chachamim. That's why, for example, Mishna Yoma 1:6 states that to keep the KG up on Yom Kippur night, the Sages would read to him from "easy" books, like Daniel, because that was in Aramaic and better understood by amei haaretz.
    – Harel13
    Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 14:08
  • @Harel13 Thank you so much for your answer, been wondering bout that for a while. My hebrew is not so great, could you tell me how i could get the translation to more of those pages in Sefer Halikitim? I'd really like to understand more of it.
    – MosheSF
    Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 22:08
  • @Harel13 ok thanks for explaining that. What do you think comes before means given that aliyos are not impacted by relative Torah knowledge? Maybe it's not so much a literal statement but a general one about prestige?
    – Dude
    Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 22:36

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