Revisions to L'dor Vador or Atah Kadosh in a heicha kedusha? [duplicate]

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edited Jun 16, 2020 at 10:41

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See Shulchan Aruch OC 109, 2. Magen Avraham sk 7:

פי' שיאמר עמו נקדש לדור ודור וכו' עד האל הקדוש ואח"כ יתפלל בפ"ע אם יוכל לסיים קודם שיגיע ש"ץ לסיום שומע תפלה [כ"מ בת"ה ור"ל חביב סי' ס"ו] ובת"צ לא יאמר עם הש"ץ עננו ברכה בפ"ע אלא בש"ת כיחיד (מט"מ מהרי"ל הגמ"נ):‏

[Someone who pray simultaneously with the Chazan] He have to say Nekaddesh, ledor Vaddor etc. ...

NOTE:

###NOTE: TheThe OP author argued that this is not a proof, because the Chazan is in a process of Tefilat Chazara, so the yachid who is synchronizing with him has a special reason to say the words of the Chazara, ledor vaddor instead of ata kadosh. But when the chazan says his own tefila loudly, may be that he needs to say ata kadosh. (this is my understanding what Scimonster objects).

thanks to @Double AA I discovered siman 124. The Bet Yosef in OC 124, reports the minhag of thie tefila, in name of the Kol Bo, who called it "תפילה בקל רם", translated in Yidish by "הויכע" (high voice, hohe is high in German).

One of the statements of the Kolbo is:

והוא א"צ לחזור ולהתפלל בלחש דאם לאחרים מוציא לעצמו לא כל שכן :‏

He (the Shats) needs not to pray for himself afterward, murmuring. Since he can with the Chazara discharge other people (e.g. who don't know to pray), he can even more discharge himself.

We learn from the Kolbo a very obvious reasoning. The chazarat Hashats is intended for persons who don't know to pray. The ledor Vador nusach also! For a quoted proof: The Baer Heytev sk 4 and the Mishna Berura sk 9 write explicitly the words ledor vaddor etc..

See Shulchan Aruch OC 109, 2. Magen Avraham sk 7:

פי' שיאמר עמו נקדש לדור ודור וכו' עד האל הקדוש ואח"כ יתפלל בפ"ע אם יוכל לסיים קודם שיגיע ש"ץ לסיום שומע תפלה [כ"מ בת"ה ור"ל חביב סי' ס"ו] ובת"צ לא יאמר עם הש"ץ עננו ברכה בפ"ע אלא בש"ת כיחיד (מט"מ מהרי"ל הגמ"נ):‏

[Someone who pray simultaneously with the Chazan] He have to say Nekaddesh, ledor Vaddor etc. ...

###NOTE: The OP author argued that this is not a proof, because the Chazan is in a process of Tefilat Chazara, so the yachid who is synchronizing with him has a special reason to say the words of the Chazara, ledor vaddor instead of ata kadosh. But when the chazan says his own tefila loudly, may be that he needs to say ata kadosh. (this is my understanding what Scimonster objects).

thanks to @Double AA I discovered siman 124. The Bet Yosef in OC 124, reports the minhag of thie tefila, in name of the Kol Bo, who called it "תפילה בקל רם", translated in Yidish by "הויכע" (high voice, hohe is high in German).

One of the statements of the Kolbo is:

והוא א"צ לחזור ולהתפלל בלחש דאם לאחרים מוציא לעצמו לא כל שכן :‏

He (the Shats) needs not to pray for himself afterward, murmuring. Since he can with the Chazara discharge other people (e.g. who don't know to pray), he can even more discharge himself.

We learn from the Kolbo a very obvious reasoning. The chazarat Hashats is intended for persons who don't know to pray. The ledor Vador nusach also! For a quoted proof: The Baer Heytev sk 4 and the Mishna Berura sk 9 write explicitly the words ledor vaddor etc..

See Shulchan Aruch OC 109, 2. Magen Avraham sk 7:

פי' שיאמר עמו נקדש לדור ודור וכו' עד האל הקדוש ואח"כ יתפלל בפ"ע אם יוכל לסיים קודם שיגיע ש"ץ לסיום שומע תפלה [כ"מ בת"ה ור"ל חביב סי' ס"ו] ובת"צ לא יאמר עם הש"ץ עננו ברכה בפ"ע אלא בש"ת כיחיד (מט"מ מהרי"ל הגמ"נ):‏

[Someone who pray simultaneously with the Chazan] He have to say Nekaddesh, ledor Vaddor etc. ...

NOTE:

The OP author argued that this is not a proof, because the Chazan is in a process of Tefilat Chazara, so the yachid who is synchronizing with him has a special reason to say the words of the Chazara, ledor vaddor instead of ata kadosh. But when the chazan says his own tefila loudly, may be that he needs to say ata kadosh. (this is my understanding what Scimonster objects).

thanks to @Double AA I discovered siman 124. The Bet Yosef in OC 124, reports the minhag of thie tefila, in name of the Kol Bo, who called it "תפילה בקל רם", translated in Yidish by "הויכע" (high voice, hohe is high in German).

One of the statements of the Kolbo is:

והוא א"צ לחזור ולהתפלל בלחש דאם לאחרים מוציא לעצמו לא כל שכן :‏

He (the Shats) needs not to pray for himself afterward, murmuring. Since he can with the Chazara discharge other people (e.g. who don't know to pray), he can even more discharge himself.

We learn from the Kolbo a very obvious reasoning. The chazarat Hashats is intended for persons who don't know to pray. The ledor Vador nusach also! For a quoted proof: The Baer Heytev sk 4 and the Mishna Berura sk 9 write explicitly the words ledor vaddor etc..

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edited Mar 27, 2017 at 20:21

kouty

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See Shulchan Aruch OC 109, 2. Magen Avraham sk 7:

פי' שיאמר עמו נקדש לדור ודור וכו' עד האל הקדוש ואח"כ יתפלל בפ"ע אם יוכל לסיים קודם שיגיע ש"ץ לסיום שומע תפלה [כ"מ בת"ה ור"ל חביב סי' ס"ו] ובת"צ לא יאמר עם הש"ץ עננו ברכה בפ"ע אלא בש"ת כיחיד (מט"מ מהרי"ל הגמ"נ):‏

[Someone who pray simultaneously with the Chazan] He have to say Nekaddesh, ledor Vaddor etc. ...

Note###NOTE: The OP author argued that this is not a proof, because the Chazan is in a process of Tefilat Chazara, so the yachid who is synchronizing with him has a special reason to say the words of the Chazara, ledor vaddor instead of ata kadosh. But when the chazan says his own tefila loudly, may be that he needs to say ata kadosh. (this is my understanding what Scimonster objects).

thanks to @Double AA the Bach inI discovered siman 124 wrote. The Bet Yosef in nameOC 124, reports the minhag of Maharshalthie tefila, in the case thatname of the Shats saidKol Bo, who called it "תפילה בקל רם", translated in Yidish by "הויכע" (high voice, hohe is high in German).

One of the 3 first blessing togrther withstatements of the congregation that they says together with him keddusha andKolbo is:

והוא א"צ לחזור ולהתפלל בלחש דאם לאחרים מוציא לעצמו לא כל שכן :‏

He (the Shats) needs not to pray for himself afterward, murmuring. Since he can with the Chazara discharge other people (e.g. who don't know to pray), he can even more discharge himself.

We learn from the blessing hakel hakkadoshKolbo a very obvious reasoning. The chazarat Hashats is intended for persons who don't know to pray. The ledor Vador nusach also! For a quoted proof: The Baer Heytev sk 4 and the Mishna Berura sk 9 write explicitly the words ledor vaddor etc..

See Shulchan Aruch OC 109, 2. Magen Avraham sk 7:

פי' שיאמר עמו נקדש לדור ודור וכו' עד האל הקדוש ואח"כ יתפלל בפ"ע אם יוכל לסיים קודם שיגיע ש"ץ לסיום שומע תפלה [כ"מ בת"ה ור"ל חביב סי' ס"ו] ובת"צ לא יאמר עם הש"ץ עננו ברכה בפ"ע אלא בש"ת כיחיד (מט"מ מהרי"ל הגמ"נ):‏

He have to say Nekaddesh, ledor Vaddor etc. ...

Note, thanks to @Double AA the Bach in siman 124 wrote in name of Maharshal, in the case that the Shats said the 3 first blessing togrther with the congregation that they says together with him keddusha and the blessing hakel hakkadosh. The Baer Heytev sk 4 and the Mishna Berura sk 9 write explicitly the words ledor vaddor etc..

See Shulchan Aruch OC 109, 2. Magen Avraham sk 7:

פי' שיאמר עמו נקדש לדור ודור וכו' עד האל הקדוש ואח"כ יתפלל בפ"ע אם יוכל לסיים קודם שיגיע ש"ץ לסיום שומע תפלה [כ"מ בת"ה ור"ל חביב סי' ס"ו] ובת"צ לא יאמר עם הש"ץ עננו ברכה בפ"ע אלא בש"ת כיחיד (מט"מ מהרי"ל הגמ"נ):‏

[Someone who pray simultaneously with the Chazan] He have to say Nekaddesh, ledor Vaddor etc. ...

###NOTE: The OP author argued that this is not a proof, because the Chazan is in a process of Tefilat Chazara, so the yachid who is synchronizing with him has a special reason to say the words of the Chazara, ledor vaddor instead of ata kadosh. But when the chazan says his own tefila loudly, may be that he needs to say ata kadosh. (this is my understanding what Scimonster objects).

thanks to @Double AA I discovered siman 124. The Bet Yosef in OC 124, reports the minhag of thie tefila, in name of the Kol Bo, who called it "תפילה בקל רם", translated in Yidish by "הויכע" (high voice, hohe is high in German).

One of the statements of the Kolbo is:

והוא א"צ לחזור ולהתפלל בלחש דאם לאחרים מוציא לעצמו לא כל שכן :‏

He (the Shats) needs not to pray for himself afterward, murmuring. Since he can with the Chazara discharge other people (e.g. who don't know to pray), he can even more discharge himself.

We learn from the Kolbo a very obvious reasoning. The chazarat Hashats is intended for persons who don't know to pray. The ledor Vador nusach also! For a quoted proof: The Baer Heytev sk 4 and the Mishna Berura sk 9 write explicitly the words ledor vaddor etc..

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edited Mar 27, 2017 at 18:43

kouty

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See Shulchan Aruch OC 109, 2. Magen Avraham sk 7:

פי' שיאמר עמו נקדש לדור ודור וכו' עד האל הקדוש ואח"כ יתפלל בפ"ע אם יוכל לסיים קודם שיגיע ש"ץ לסיום שומע תפלה [כ"מ בת"ה ור"ל חביב סי' ס"ו] ובת"צ לא יאמר עם הש"ץ עננו ברכה בפ"ע אלא בש"ת כיחיד (מט"מ מהרי"ל הגמ"נ):‏

He have to say Nekaddesh, ledor Vaddor etc. ...

Note, thanks to @Double AA the Bach in siman 124 wrote in name of Maharshal, in the case that the Shats said the 3 first blessing togrther with the congregation that they says together with him keddusha and the blessing hakel hakkadosh. The Baer Heytev sk 4 and the Mishna Berura sk 9 write explicitly the words ledor vaddor etc..

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created Mar 27, 2017 at 14:01

kouty

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