I can think of quite a few refrains that I have heard or read from anti-Zionist camps saying that joining the (secular) Israeli government which has a hand in certain aveiros is prohibited due to various Torah problems, referred to as "Mesayei'a Ovrei Aveirah", "Machazik Yedei Ovrei Aveirah", "Al Tischaber Larasha", etc. (In short these mean not to associate and help people who violate the Torah.)

While some may believe that the secular government may not be "Ovrei Aveirah", there are many parties in Israel that participate in the "secular government", who probably believe that others who they work with are in fact "Resha'im". What is the traditional response to these questions? (Please link to essays, books, shiurim, etc. as sources.)

Do they simply say that the pros outweigh the cons, or do they have a reason why these concerns are invalid?

  • You say "Justification" as if לכתחילה there's no permission or use in participating in Government. Why? Because of the minority? we don't follow minority. Maybe the question, if anything, should ask is there a reason NOT TO participate?
    – Al Berko
    Dec 3 '18 at 17:15
  • Also, there's no "Secular" government as there's no Religious parties. There are secular or religious persons. The state government can not be called "secular" just as 7 Tuvey Hair, even when secular themselves, are not called 7 Secular Tuvey Hair. They manage the state, they do not need to follow the Gdoylim.
    – Al Berko
    Dec 3 '18 at 17:19
  1. I think one thing we've inherited from our Sages is practicality. We all love dying for Kiddush Hashem but turns out living for Kiddush Hashem is harder yet. And keeping the community alive demands some sacrifices.

  2. As I commented above "אמר רב חנן הכל יודעים כלה למה נכנסת לחופה" - everybody knows what awaits a bride after the Chuppah, but she's willing to get through it because "טב למיתב טן דו מלמיתב ארמלו" - better married than alone.

  3. Explanation: same with politics, we all know the harlotry and the filth of it, but better be [owned and] sitting in the government than all alone out. That's the reason the Religious parties have no political agenda whatsoever and they join almost all government since the establishment of the State. Somebody has to do the dirty job of providing the means for the community(-ies) and the Religious parties do it just well under the guidance of the Gdoylim.

  4. The point is that the game of Democracy is not covered in Judaism - nothing in Judaism says how to run a country, so we improvise. The closest thing to it is a Machlokes about the nature of the 7 Tuvey Hair and it is so vague we can practically do whatever we see reasonable. And that's exactly what happens with the "Religious Parties".

  5. Back to #1, We've seen a lot of regard to politics in the Mishnah, compiled completely by chance by our probably best politician - R' Yahudah haNassi, for example, "אין מעברים את השנה אלא אם כן ירצה נשיא" so we can always fit politics into Halachah.

  • 1
    Can you please provide some sources? Dec 2 '18 at 23:49
  • I brought some citations from the Gemmorah, what sources you refer to? Democracy not covered in Judaism? 7 Tuvej Hair?
    – Al Berko
    Dec 3 '18 at 10:14
  • You noted rightfully that the Satmar's Rebbe wrote a lot on this issue, but it wasn't accepted by the Gdoylim in Israel. I hinted in #2 that those matters are regarded as "intimate" and not talked about publicly. All the public should know is that the Gdoylim do their best for the sake of the community and everybody should go to vote.
    – Al Berko
    Dec 3 '18 at 10:17
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    you brought three sources from the Gemara that are completely unrelated. I'm looking for sources that discuss this issue... Dec 3 '18 at 15:34

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