I was told the spiritual worlds are above time, does that mean they always existed? What does it mean that on some level they do not experience any change?

Sources please.

  • 2
    What are "the spiritual worlds"?
    – Alex
    Oct 11, 2018 at 21:50
  • @Alex anything for example atzilus, beriya...
    – hazoriz
    Oct 11, 2018 at 21:51
  • judaism.stackexchange.com/a/8512/603
    – Menachem
    Oct 11, 2018 at 22:04
  • "Always" means "thru time", but if you claim they are above time, 'above' is inapplicable. Sorry. It's a well-known paradigm of the creation when there were day 1, day 2 till day 4 when the celestial bodies were created to denote time.
    – Al Berko
    Oct 12, 2018 at 12:09
  • Created Or what? What can we/you understand besides "created"?
    – Al Berko
    Aug 17, 2019 at 21:46

2 Answers 2


Rabbi Golomb mashpia in 770 said: That the Tzimszum and Atzilus always existed (and did not change), but there was a time that Beriya did not exist (it is a chidush)

  • Do you have a link to a shiur online, or is this what you heard from him?
    – DonielF
    Aug 13, 2019 at 0:44
  • @DonielF I heard from him
    – hazoriz
    Aug 13, 2019 at 3:00

The answer is simple, albeit unsourced: time is the measure of change. Our world has time because it has intrinsic changes.

But spiritual worlds are created still, with no possible change, as in:

"העולם הבא אין בו לא אכילה ולא שתיה ולא פריה ורביה ולא משא ומתן ולא קנאה ולא שנאה ולא תחרות, אלא צדיקים יושבין ועטרותיהם בראשיהם ונהנים מזיו השכינה, שנאמר: ויחזו את האלהים ויאכלו וישתו (שמות כ"ד י"א) "

Also the Mishnah Avot 4,17 says that changing one's spiritual status is only possible in this world, and impossible in the WTC. (THat's why we do things לעילוי נשמת that they can not do for themselves).

הוא היה אומר, יפה שעה אחת בתשובה ומעשים טובים בעולם הזה, מכל חיי העולם הבא. ויפה שעה אחת של קורת רוח בעולם הבא, מכל חיי העולם הזה

This is why the term "time" is inapplicable in the world where no change is possible.

  • 1
    Except the spiritual worlds do change. See basically all of Nefesh HaChaim.
    – robev
    Oct 12, 2018 at 13:10
  • @robev and in this answer there seems to be change of aliyas hanishama
    – hazoriz
    Oct 12, 2018 at 13:17
  • Things are more complicated than this. The time line is a measure of change. However, that is time as humans experience it ONLY after eating the fruit. That's not a complete description of what time is and how it works. See Michtav meiEliyahu vol II pp 150-154, “Yemei Bereishis veYemai Olam“ or my paragraph-by-paragraph explanation of it at aishdas.org/asp/rav-desslers-approach-to-creation Aug 12, 2019 at 21:28

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