I understand (though I've no good source at the moment) that two people (who know one another well enough that they may come to share food) may not eat meat and milk within arm's-reach at the same table without something or someone between them to remind them not to share. However, if one of them is eating non-kosher meat (or milk), the other can eat milk (or meat), since there's no worry that the latter will eat the former's food, as he's repelled by non-kosher food. Why aren't we concerned the former will eat the latter's food? It should be disallowed for kosher-observer to eat with the other lest he share food with him and cause him to eat milk and meat: surely there's no repulsion there. (I mean of course a case where that would be prohibited.)

  • 1
    Mixing non kosher meat and milk isn't necessarily an issur de'oraysa. Maybe this is a factor.
    – mroll
    Nov 15, 2017 at 12:29
  • @mroll In what case is it? Even d’Rabbanan?
    – DonielF
    Nov 15, 2017 at 16:14
  • 1
    @DonielF the prohibition of eating meat and milk only applies to kosher meat and milk. What would be gained by the rabbis adding a prohibition to not eat non kosher meat and milk together? A person who is already eating treif won't be affected by this anyhow
    – Laser123
    Nov 15, 2017 at 16:59
  • 1
    @Laser123 Exactly my point. There is no problem with cooking or owning treif meat mixed with milk. The only problem with eating it is the fact that it’s treif.
    – DonielF
    Nov 15, 2017 at 17:11
  • @DonielF, iirc that's the Rambam's "wondrous point", rejected as practical halacha by pretty much everyone but the Noda Bihuda, and is part of the reason I added the last, parenthetical sentence to my question.
    – msh210
    Nov 15, 2017 at 17:53

3 Answers 3


Shach 88:2-

אסור להעלות על השלחן. ונראה דוקא בשר אסור להעלות על השלחן שאוכל חלב או איפכא משום דלא בדילי אינשי מיניה מפני שכל אחד היתר בפני עצמו אבל מותר להעלות בשר נבילה על השלחן שאוכל עליו בשר כשירה וכן מבואר בדברי הר"ן ומביאו ב"י בסימן צ"ז מיהו ממ"ש הרא"ש בפירושו לנדרים סוף דף מ"א גבי המודר הנאה מחבירו אוכל עמו על השלחן וז"ל ולא חיישינן שמא יאכל עמו דכיון שהדירו מסתמא שונאים זא"ז טפי מב' אכסנאים האוכלים על שלחן א' זה בשר וזה גבינה עכ"ל ומביאו ב"י לקמן סי' רכ"א משמע דאפילו בשאר איסורים נמי דינא הכי וי"ל דנדרים כיון שאינו אסור אלא מצד נדרו חשוב כבשר וחלב שכל א' היתר בפני עצמו אבל בשאר איסורים י"ל דמודה הרא"ש והא דכתב הרשב"א בתשובה ס"ס קע"ז ומביאו ב"י בא"ח סימן ת"מ דעובד כוכבים הבא עם חמצו לבית ישראל אסור להעלותו עמו על השלחן כו' ופסק כך בש"ע שם נראה דהתם משום חומרא דחמץ שאני דכיון דחמץ במשהו רחוק הוא שלא יתערב פירור א' משל עובד כוכבים בשל ישראל כמ"ש הרשב"א שם תדע דהא אפילו בהפסק מפה קאסר התם אכן מדברי הא"ח שהביא הב"י לשם לא משמע הכי לכאורה שכתב שם וז"ל אם רוצה העובד כוכבים לאכול חמץ בבית ישראל מותר ואפילו על שלחן ישראל קרוב הדבר להתיר זה מצה וזה חמץ דומיא דשני אכסנאים ע"כ ומדהתיר מטעמא דומיא דשני אכסנאים דוקא מכלל דס"ל דאפילו דבר שהוא אסור בפני עצמו אסור להעלות עמו על השלחן ומ"מ דברי הר"ן נראים וכן משמעות כל הפוסקים שלא כתבו איסור זה אלא גבי בשר וחלב וגם נ"ל דהא"ח מודה לזה אלא דשאני התם דעל הלחם יחיה האדם ורגיל בו כל השנה ולא בדילי אינשי מיניה וכה"ג כתב הרא"ש בפרק אין מעמידין גבי בישול עובד כוכבים דפת צריך הרחקה טפי משום דעל הלחם יחיה האדם ומביאו ב"י לקמן ר"ס קי"ד ע"ש תדע דהא ע"כ הר"ן גופיה מודה בלחם דהא אמרינן ר"פ כ"ה דף ק"ד ע"ב חלת ח"ל אי לאו דהיא דרבנן הוי גזרינן העלאה אטו אכילה (וע"ל סימן שכ"ג ס"ק ב') אע"ג דאסירה באפי נפשה א"ו דבלחם שייך למיגזר טפי ודו"ק, ולפ"ז אסור להעלות לחם של איסור על השלחן כדרך שאסור בבשר וחלב:

Here is my summary - The prohibition of eating on the same table food as someone else who is eating food that the other one isn't allowed to eat without a Hekker (reminder to make sure they don't come to eat from each others food) to prevent them from eating each others food only applies to things that you are used to eating and not to things that you are used to refraining from such as non Kosher meat.

The Rosh permits you to eat with someone who you you made a Neder (vow) that you wouldn't have any benefit from since is that since they made a vow that they wouldn't benefit from each other, probably they hate each other and would never eat from the other one's food anyway. That would seem to imply that he does apply the Issur of eating on the same table to things that are always forbidden for you to eat!

However, the truth is that he only forbids considers there to be a possible issue with eating on the same table as something that you made a vow against because that is also not something he is used to separating from.

The Rashba and Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 440:3) forbid eating on the same table as a Goy's Chametz, because of the Chumrah of Chametz. Since its Assur Bimashehu (even a tiny bit is forbidden) we are concerned that a drop may land in the Jews food, which is why it's Assur even on a separate tablecloth (which would normally be okay if one person was eating meat and the other was eating milk).

However, based on the Orchos Chaim it sounds like the issue is specifically by bread, because bread is man's primary sustenance, and he's used to eating it all year, which is similar to the way the Rosh forbade eating on the same table without a Hekker by Pas Akkum.

Note that the Shach there only permits eating Kosher meat at the same time as Treif meat. Additionally, as has been pointed out by the commentators above the person is already eating Treif. We don't make Gezeiros that he may come to cook it with milk which may or may not be Assur depending whether you hold of the Nekuda Nifla'ah. This is especially true according to the Pleisi 88:1

שלא יבאו לאוכלם יחד. וכן הוא לשון הרמב"ם (פ"ט ה"כ). ואע"ג דבגמרא (ק"ד ע"ב) נאמר שמא יעלה באלפס רותח כלי ראשון. יש לומר דרמב"ם ס"ל דכל זה לרב יוסף דדייק [ד]בשר [עוף] בחלב דאורייתא דאם לא כן הא הוי גזרה לגזרה, דאינו אסור מתורה רק דרך בישול, ולכך הוצרך לומר דיעלה באלפס וכו'. אבל לפי דקיימ"ל כאביי (שם) דבשר [בחלב] בעוף מדרבנן, ומ"מ גזרינן גזירה לגזרה, א"כ אין צריך לומר דחששו לאלפס, רק פשוט דיאכלנו יחד, ואי דהוי דרבנן, מה בכך, אף לאיסור דרבנן חששו, וגזרו הרחקה טפי. ואתי שפיר.

who says that Halacha Lemaisa we are only concerned that they will eat it together, not that they will cook it together.

Finally, see later on in that Pleisi where he writes that there is no problem with eating on the same table as someone from a different religion since the distance between people of two different religions is greater than the distance between people who dislike each other and therefore you wouldn't need to be concerned that you'll come to eat from each other's food.

ובאמת לא הבנתי מי שם אחוה וריעות בין יהודי לעכו"ם, הלא הלבבות רחוקות, ואין פירוד לבבות כפירוד הדתות, ואפילו שימת חן אסרוהו, וא"כ הוי ליה כאכסניא וכבני אדם שאינם מכירין זה את זה, והיש יותר איבה מבין שני בעלי דתות, נראים כאוהבין בשעת הנאתן וכו'. ולכן דברי הר"ן לא הבנתי, ולכן בתרומת יין בא"י וכדומה [יש] להחמיר.

See also Teshuvos Beis Yaakov 12 (quoted in Darkei teshuva 88:15, Ayen Sham) and Vedarashta Vichakarta Chelek Gimmel Y.D. Siman 2 Os 4. Note that others such as the Pri Toar 88:1 and Yad Yehuda Ha;aruch 88:2 argue on this last point, although the Pri Toar actually argues on the Shach entirely and holds that whenever it looks identical you have to be Machmir even if it's Treif. Obviously, we don't hold like him.

Apparently, there's a Badei Hashulchan on this as well and I'll try to add it in when I get my hands on one in the next few days.

  • I don't see how this answers the question.
    – msh210
    Jun 14, 2018 at 14:20

1)can you cook kosher milk and non kosher nest meat? Yes yoreh deah 87:3 (there will be a machlokes about cow that wasn't shechted vs rhino)

Can you eat it? Obviously no. Why? Because of (in addition to the de'oraysa the) mederabanan of basar bechalov. Shach 3 on that Halacha

Is one allowed to eat kosher milk on the same table as non kosher meat. Yes. Yoreh deah 88:1 shach 2

What's the issue with eating milk and meat on the same table? Lest one eat them together. Which is only an issur derabanan, taz 1.

So now if mixing kosher and not kosher is only a derabanan and eating on the same table is only a derabanan then not allowing you to eat then on the same would be a gezira legezaira.

  • Then why prohibit eating chicken at the same table as milk?
    – Double AA
    Nov 15, 2017 at 19:47
  • I'll find the source in a little bit. Chicken has a different status then other derabanan because of its very close resemblance to meat it's treated as a de'oraysa in many cases.
    – mroll
    Nov 15, 2017 at 19:50
  • Chicken resembles meat more than non-kosher meat resembles meat??
    – Double AA
    Nov 15, 2017 at 20:03

I asked my Rav about this.

As you and others correctly pointed out, you are allowed to eat. Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 88, Shach 2, the principle of בדילי מיניה i.e "people abstain from eating food which is not kosher".

The question of meat and milk by treif is interesting but not relevant. Your question is not about להעלות בשר על השלחן שאוכלין גבינה, but about לפני עור, placing a stumbling block, and a question of הוכח, rebuking your fellow.

He is eating treif, he will drink milk with it, with or without you, so it is mutar for you to eat with him and not worry about placing a stumbling block (which would require you to put the milk in his hands! תרי עברי נהרא "two sides of the river", Avodah Zara 6b, Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 151:1).

The question is do you have any obligation to stop him? He's eating treif. He won't listen, so no. See Bei’ur Halacha 608, Aruch HaShulchan 608:7, Tzitz Eliezer 17:36, and Shevet HaLevi 1:205:608.

Ask your LOR in personal cases where the possibility of mecha’ah, effective rebuke, might work.

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