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A Rebbe gives a child homework to review the Gemarah he has learned today.The father does not feel it to be necessary, and therefore signs that he did his Homework when he didn't. Is this outright lying or is it lying at all?

Why not you say? Chazal say "מותר לשנות מפני השלום". Meaning when Avraham does not need to know that Sara said that he is old, as this is something which Sara has to deal with herself, Hashem not only skips it but "edits "Sara's words as well.That tells us that what that person needs to know is 'his' truth.

Well, the Rebbe is at our service {for pay of course}.It is our call to have him do that which we are asking him to do.If a group pays a Rebbe to learn Gemara with the boys then this what he ought to do, although in his opinion Mishnayos would be way more beneficial and might turn them into much greater Talmidai Chachamim.

So too in our case then, although we can not affect the entire class with our way, but when all the difference is in his child then it is his call to have him brought up this way.

In the other hand we may claim that he is making light the respect for the Rebbe's way, which will somehow be felt by the Rebbe thus making it his business as well and would once again fall into the category of Sheker.

Now, the Rebbe is giving a prize to all who did their Homework, which brings in an issue of perhaps being Genaiva as the Rebbe is not obligated to give this prize and is giving it for following his way rather than the father's way?.

As an addition, We find in Masechet Kalla Rabbosi Perek 4 Halacha 22' that it allows and encourages at times when it is my concern only, for someone to answer one's curiosity with a simple "I don't know" although he does know. Which shows us that where it is not something I am expected to share with you I can just say "I don't know".

So can you define "The Truth" in this in this matter?

  • I'm not following some of your assumptions, here. Ideally, a father is supposed to teach his son Torah. If he wants to hire a rebbe to do this for him (which, essentially is what occurs when you send your son to yeshiva), then the rebbe is your shaliach, and in a sense, you relinquish the best judgment of teaching methods to the rebbe. If the father disagrees with the rebbe's decision, he should be discussing this directly with the rebbe. What you suggest is playing "games around the game" and placing the child in the middle. It does sound like, at the least, g'neivat da'at. – DanF Oct 30 '17 at 20:38
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    "whats it the Rebbe's business " - This has nothing to do with the "rebbe's business". It has to do with the father's business. If I were the rebbe and I found out that the father was lying to me and playing these games (you'd be surprised at what little kids can and will say, BTW,) I'd be livid. Parents and teachers are supposed to co-operate in the education of their children. Lying is itself a sin. But this form of lying sounds quite harmful. – DanF Oct 30 '17 at 20:43
  • I broke my teeth trying to read this. It seems like the issue of lying is being conflated with the issue of stealing. – mevaqesh Oct 30 '17 at 23:41
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    Consider the effect on your child. He will see that telling, even signing, an untruth can be acceptable. Is this the lesson you want to pass on?? – Avrohom Yitzchok Oct 31 '17 at 10:11
  • The teacher's grade represents his assessment of the student's skills. It is not the parents' business. So actually the truth here is his business not yours. The parents can choose not to care about the teacher's assessment, but they can't make the teacher and the school unwittingly lie to future schools and employers. Their reputation is on the line. – Double AA Oct 31 '17 at 14:57
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The Gemara in Yavamos 63 teaches us (based on the verse לִמְּדוּ לְשׁוֹנָם דַּבֶּר שֶׁקֶר הַעֲוֵה - They trained their tongues to speak falsely) that one may not lie even to achieve the correct result.

Rav's wife used to pain him. If he would ask her to make lentils, she would make legumes, and vice-versa. When Rav's son Chiya grew up, he told his mother the opposite of what Rav requested.
Said Rav to his son: Your mother has improved (she fulfills my request)!
Answered Chiya: I switched your request.
Remarked Rav: This is as people say, you will learn from your children! (I should request the opposite of what I want.) However, you should not do so (lie about what I said) as the verse says "They trained their tongues to speak falsely..."

So, besides for the bad Chinuch/example you're setting for your son, the Gemara makes it sound like the Navi disproves of such behavior. (I can't say it's forbidden. The exact prohibition would make an interesting question in of itself.)

So The Truth remains The Truth, and if you don't approve of the teacher's approach, then speak to him.

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My uncle HaGaon HaRav Yitschak Silverstein Shelitah from Benei Berak sent me the following לגבי הקטן זה חלק מהחינוך שכותבים את הפתקין האלו וגם המלמדים יודעים שלא תמיד זה נכון ועל דעת כן עושים כן ומה שיש שאלה של למדו לשונם דבר שקר צריך לומר לתינוק אמנם הפעם זה לא היה כל כך מוצלח אבל להבא תשתדל

In short,part of the children are those notes which increases their interest.The teachers know that at times the parents have not said the truth and therefore it isn't Sheker or Genaivah

In regard to the pussuk למדו לשונם דבר שקר,the father shall tell the child that this time you did not succeed but next time i expect you to succeed since this world is not a free for all.

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