In Western European siddurim there are two pesukim before Kaddish Tiskabal. One from במדבר and one from תהלים. They are present in the Rödelheim/Sfas Emes, the Seligman Baer (page 150 in the pdf), and Sefas Yisroel (page 18 in the pdf), among others. My question about these pesukim is twofold.

  1. What is the source (if any) for saying these pesukim?
  2. Who says them? The kehila, or the shaliach tzibor, or both together?

Edit: None of the siddurim above have any instructions about these pesukim that I can find.

  • 1
    Why be coy? "One from במדבר and one from תהלים." Why not just tell us what verses they are?
    – msh210
    Aug 20, 2017 at 20:34
  • @msh210, I don't remember the citations off-hand, but ועתה יגדל–נא is from Shelach and the other passuk is זכר רחמיך ה׳ Aug 20, 2017 at 21:40
  • I don't have a makor, my answer addresses 2 though Aug 20, 2017 at 21:40
  • Q1 in the OP is a dupe, Aaron. Aug 21, 2017 at 13:57

1 Answer 1


These pesukim are said before all קדישים, however, as most older siddurim (such as most Rödelheim editions) usually indicated which קדיש is said, rather than printing it, there are only a couple of instances where it is written out (per my grandfather's Tefilloh VeTachanunim Rödelheim, they are printed in קדיש שלם for תתקבל, יתום, and דרבננן after ובא לציון of weekday Shacharis and חצי קדיש before the Ma'ariv 'Amidoh).

They are recited by the kahal, per the Authorised Selichot (Rosenfeld) and Koren Seliḥot for the First Night ע"פ Minhag Anglia. I have heard that in Copenhagen, the choir sang those lines.

The source is discussed here.

See also:

  • I've got two modern siddurim with the haskama of Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz (for what it's worth) that only have those pesukim on kaddish tiskabal (R' Hoffner & R' Hoffmeister, both on www.moreshesashkenaz.org). Could it be that the minhag changed, due to the expense of printing? Since the pesukim were only printed with kaddish tiskabal, it became that they were only said with kaddish tiskabal?
    – wolf_math
    Aug 24, 2017 at 13:20
  • @wolf_math, in TS"Y, which I cited above, he prints all of the kaddishim with ועתה יגדל־נא and זכר רחמיך ה׳. R' Rallis follows the MM"A siddur in general, when it comes to nusach. Koren also prints these pesukim before kaddish shalem in their old Nusach Ashkenaz siddur. I'm not sure about R' Hoffner's siddur, but R' Hoffmeister's siddur isn't published through the Machon. Aug 24, 2017 at 14:09
  • 1
    So what I gather is that different communities do it differently? Also, R' Hoffmeister still has a Moreshes Ashkenaz haskama.
    – wolf_math
    Aug 25, 2017 at 1:35
  • 1
    @wolf_math, I recall a caveat from when his siddur was reissued that it did not completely adhere to Minhog Frankfurt a/M (nor should it, it was created for an Österreicher kehilloh in Wien!) Aug 25, 2017 at 1:39

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