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My friend and I were complaining last night about how long davening would be this morning, 17 Tamuz. Since it's a fast day, there are slichos and leining and a lot of stuff (it actually wasn't all that bad, really). After I mentioned there were slichos, my friend said 'yeah, and Avinu Malkeinu.' I'm pretty sure that Avinu Malkeinu always comes together with slichos, and told him that.

Am I right? Do we ever say slichos without saying Avinu Malkeinu?

I know that nusach sfard says Avinu Malkeinu daily, but I'm talking about nusach ashkenaz.

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    There's a reason for everything in davening - certainly Selichot. Yes, it does lengthen the service, but one shouldn't complain about it, really.
    – DanF
    Jul 11, 2017 at 21:58
  • "nusach sfard says avinu malkeinu daily" - ALL forms of Nusach Sefard??? I just changed my "Smart Siddur" app setting to Nusahc Sefard. No "Avinu Malkeinu" mentioned for today. I also haven't seen this as a daily item in other Nusach Sefard siddurim such as Art Scroll and Tikkun Me'ir.
    – DanF
    Jul 12, 2017 at 17:06

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German Ashkenazim do not say on public fast days Avinu Malkeinu, and this was followed by the Ashkenazim of Austria-Hungary. See any Rödelheim or Schlesinger siddur for reference.

Edit 12.07.2017:

Since many started to discuss the details and exceptions regarding the Shabbat, I would like to add that I was not 100% precise. The very last verse of Avinu Malkeinu is indeed said in Tachanun after Shomer Yisrael. Emden writes that this is said only on fast days, while Heidenheim holds that this was a minority custom of German Jews. Wiesenthal holds that it is said silently, but I haven't found any reference in older books, except for the fact that Heidenheim used smaller types for this row.

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  • The real nusach ashkenaz, huh?
    – Samuel
    Jul 11, 2017 at 20:57
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    I don't know whether it's more real or not, but this is the minhag. Few years ago I was not keen on this, and followed Artscroll automatically, but all Western Ashkenazim (should) do it this way. However, I'd love to see some halakhical quote, since Avinu Malkeinu is cited in Taanit 25b...
    – Kazi bácsi
    Jul 11, 2017 at 21:06
  • @Kazibácsi opensiddur.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/… Page 99. It seems that saying Avinu Malkeinu on fast days is a recent minhag.
    – wolf_math
    Jul 11, 2017 at 21:49
  • I didn't mean that it was more real, but "ashkenaz" is "germany," so technically the term is only for germans and not all europeans, but thats how the term is used today, so i guess thats what it means now.
    – Samuel
    Jul 11, 2017 at 22:57
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    Maharil states by all fast days that "Shomer Yisroel" is said. This implies that the old minhag was not to say "Shomer Yisroel" on a regular day, only on fast days (and selichos). On a regular day they started "Vaanachnu Lo neda", thus the verse Avinu malkeinu was not said.
    – lionscribe
    Jul 12, 2017 at 16:55
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This occurs most notably on these occasions:

  • Entire Chodesh Ellul (Sefardim) or approx. last week of Ellul (Ashkenazim)
  • Erev Yom Kippur (Avinu Malkeinu is not said unless Yom Kippur occurs on Shabbat.)

Also, there is a minhag (I will edit in source, later, IY"H) among some to say Selichot on Tish'a B'Av instead of Kinot. However, they do not say Avinu Malkeinu.

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    Also on Yom Kippur on Shabbat there's no Avinu Malkenu at most prayers
    – Double AA ♦
    Jul 11, 2017 at 22:07
  • To be more precise, if Erev Yom Kippur is on Friday, it is "anticipated" in the shachrit.
    – Kazi bácsi
    Jul 12, 2017 at 9:36
  • @DoubleAA Depends on OP's definition of "Selichot". If s/he's specifically referring to the weekday format where Ashrei is said before and Kaddish Shalem afterwards, then, this is not done on Yom Kippur. (Well ... perhaps Ne'ila fits this format, in a way, but, then again, even on Shabbat you DO say Avinu Malkeinu in Ne'ilah.)
    – DanF
    Jul 12, 2017 at 15:26
  • @DanF The selichot after maariv are structurally most similar to the weekday ones and on Shabbat there is no Avinu Malkenu then
    – Double AA ♦
    Jul 12, 2017 at 15:29
  • @DoubleAA Yes, that's a good point, as there is no chazarat hashat"z in Ma'ariv. However, we wouldn't expect Selichot at night, either. That we do it on Yom Kippur night (other than on Shabbat) is an exception.
    – DanF
    Jul 12, 2017 at 15:33

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