Brachos 8:2 records a dispute between Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel whether one should wash before or after Kiddush. The Yekke minhag is to wash before Kiddush. Why do they follow Beis Shammai?

(In general, we pasken like Beis Hillel, except for eighteen cases enumerated in the first Perek of Shabbos, plus six in Tosfos to Sukkah 3a s.v. D'amar lach. This isn't one of them, though the following Mishnah is listed in the aforementioned Tosfos.)

  • Are you assuming that the law always follows beit hillel? Consider editing in a source for this. – mevaqesh Apr 2 '17 at 21:46
  • More important, perhaps, is to include that you checked the list of places where we rule like b shammai and didn't see this listed – Double AA Apr 2 '17 at 22:42
  • except for eighteen cases enumerated in the first Perek of Shabbos And six in a Tosfos (in Sukkah IIRC) – ertert3terte Apr 3 '17 at 1:40
  • @ShmuelBrin Ah, the minimum size of a Sukkah. Forgot about that one. Thanks! – DonielF Apr 3 '17 at 1:57
  • @DonielF And four tzitzis threads, and that you have to go back to where you ate to Bench, and that you have to sweep the floor before Mayim Achronim, and Tzitzis on linen, and length of the not-knotted part of the Tzitzis string. – ertert3terte Apr 3 '17 at 2:12

The Rosh says two answers:

ור״י חילק משוס למזיגה היא בחמין צריך דקדוק גדול שלא יתסר ושלא יותיר ואיכא היסת הדעת טפי. ור"ת ירץ דהתם מיירי בחול ואם יתול ידיו תתלה לפעמים יתעסק בשאר צרכים ולא יאכל אלתר ואתי לאסוחי דעתיה אבל בשכח השלחן ערוך ליכא למיחש להכי

  1. The Ri: The argument between Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel is only when you have to mix the wine. If you're not mixing the wine (like nowadays, or if you mix the wine before washing your hands), there's not enough of a hefsek for Beis Hillel to object.
  2. Rabbeinu Tam: The argument between Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel is only on a weekday when there's a concern that one won't eat right away (you'll wash your hands, drink some wine, and get carried away). On Friday night you have to have your meal right away, so Beis Hillel doesn't care about the Hefsek.
  • The OP seeks an answer to the question, how can the Yekke minhag be to wash before Kiddush which is the opinion of Beis Shammai. Your translated source needs more detail to explain why it is an answer. Your cut and paste Hebrew source needs editing; consider ור"ת ירץ דהתם מייד בתול ואם ימול ידיו תתלה - what is that supposed to mean?! The answer is: . ור"ת תירץ דהתם מיירי בחול ואם יטול ידיו תחלה : I downvoted (for the moment). – Avrohom Yitzchok Apr 6 '17 at 16:51
  • @AvrohomYitzchok sorry, copy/paste from Hebrewbooks. – ertert3terte Apr 6 '17 at 18:11

Although this is a dispute between Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel, according to the answer posted here it appears the dispute regarding this particular halacha is based on Rav and Shmuel in Pesachim (106b).

Nonetheless, see Rema on (271:12) or here

וי"א דלכתחלה יש ליטול ידיו קודם הקידוש ולקדש על היין (הרא"ש ומרדכי פרק ע"פ (ורשב"א) והגה"מ פכ"ט, והטור). וכן המנהג פשוט במדינות אלו (סב) ואין לשנות רק בליל פסח, כמו שיתבאר סי' תע"ג Rema: There are those that say that in the first place (l'khatchila) one should wash the hands before Kiddush, then make the Kiddush on the wine [presumably followed by the blessing on the bread]. And this is the obvious custom in these lands, and one should not change except on the eve of Passover [at the seder, when we say the Kiddush first and wash for the matzah considerably later].

Washing ones hands before or after kiddush is a machlokes rishonim which the Rema follows the Rishonim (Rosh, Rashba, Mordechai, etc) who hold to wash before kiddush. Yekkes seem to follow the Rema the vast majority of the time. It doesn't appear to be a question of following Beis Shammai or Beis Hillel. The Yekkes are following the Rema, who in turn follows rishonim who hold to wash before kiddush.

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    It still doesn't answer the question. We don't pasken like Beis Shammai, so why do they? Because their Rebbe did? Why did he? All you're doing is pushing the question. – DonielF Apr 2 '17 at 21:01
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    This appears to be one of those cases. Does it? The only relevant example there is that we sweep the floor before washing Mayim Achronim. – ertert3terte Apr 3 '17 at 1:44
  • Further, your assertion about holding like the Rem"a is problematic, as he himself wasn't paskening for Jekkes and in the Rheinland, most of the rabbanim had a problem with the Rem"a's piskei halachah. For example, the Chavos Yoir, R' Yair Bacharach זצ"ל of Worms, wrote a whole gloss on the Tur as a Jekkisch Shulchan 'Aruch, entitled the Mekor Chaim. – Noach MiFrankfurt Apr 3 '17 at 1:54
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    @NoachMiFrankfurt On the other hand, he quotes the Rosh and Mordechai, who were the main Jekkishe Poskim. – ertert3terte Apr 3 '17 at 2:15
  • @ShmuelBrin, I never said that we don't hold like this Rem"a, I was merely pointing out the fallacy of the assertion in our answer here. – Noach MiFrankfurt Apr 3 '17 at 2:19

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