In a nusach Ashkenaz heicha kedusha, does the chazzan finish kedusha with l'dor vador or atah kadosh?

To be clear, I'm asking about the chazzan, when lechatchila doing a heicha kedusha. Not about an individual who comes in late and I davens along with the chazzan.

I used to daven in a minyan that always used a heicha kedusha and they said l'dor vador. However, i was discussing it with my father over Shabbat and he said that he saw somewhere that you're supposed to say atah kadosh.

I see reasoning for both sides. It serves as the chazarat hashatz and kedusha is said, so follow the normal formula. It also serves as the chazzan's personal Shmoneh Esrei, so he should follow the normal formula.

What do sources say about this?

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    I've davened in several different minyanim that did heicha kedusha and have only ever heard ledor vador – Heshy Mar 26 '17 at 11:00

See Shulchan Aruch OC 109, 2. Magen Avraham sk 7:

פי' שיאמר עמו נקדש לדור ודור וכו' עד האל הקדוש ואח"כ יתפלל בפ"ע אם יוכל לסיים קודם שיגיע ש"ץ לסיום שומע תפלה [כ"מ בת"ה ור"ל חביב סי' ס"ו] ובת"צ לא יאמר עם הש"ץ עננו ברכה בפ"ע אלא בש"ת כיחיד (מט"מ מהרי"ל הגמ"נ):‏

[Someone who pray simultaneously with the Chazan] He have to say Nekaddesh, ledor Vaddor etc. ...


The OP author argued that this is not a proof, because the Chazan is in a process of Tefilat Chazara, so the yachid who is synchronizing with him has a special reason to say the words of the Chazara, ledor vaddor instead of ata kadosh. But when the chazan says his own tefila loudly, may be that he needs to say ata kadosh. (this is my understanding what Scimonster objects).

thanks to @Double AA I discovered siman 124. The Bet Yosef in OC 124, reports the minhag of thie tefila, in name of the Kol Bo, who called it "תפילה בקל רם", translated in Yidish by "הויכע" (high voice, hohe is high in German).

One of the statements of the Kolbo is:

והוא א"צ לחזור ולהתפלל בלחש דאם לאחרים מוציא לעצמו לא כל שכן :‏

He (the Shats) needs not to pray for himself afterward, murmuring. Since he can with the Chazara discharge other people (e.g. who don't know to pray), he can even more discharge himself.

We learn from the Kolbo a very obvious reasoning. The chazarat Hashats is intended for persons who don't know to pray. The ledor Vador nusach also! For a quoted proof: The Baer Heytev sk 4 and the Mishna Berura sk 9 write explicitly the words ledor vaddor etc..

  • From what i understand, this is dealing with an individual who comes late and davens in unison with the normal chazzan's repetition. Not a minyan that lechatchila has a heicha kedusha. – Scimonster Mar 27 '17 at 16:35
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    @Scimonster How does this not solve any issues you may have had? Clearly a chazzan says ledor too. – Double AA Mar 27 '17 at 16:45
  • @Scimonster yes. I misunderstand you. Can you write in hebrew heicha kedusha – kouty Mar 27 '17 at 16:50
  • @DoubleAA The chazzan says ledor normally during his repetition. This counts for both the repetition and the silent shmoneh esrei. If the answer is that he said ledor in his repetition, period, then fine, but that's not even what any of the current answers are. – Scimonster Mar 27 '17 at 16:51
  • @Scimonster obviously the chazan says ledor vdng – kouty Mar 27 '17 at 16:51

The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch in 69:7 סִימָּן סט - דִּינֵי תְּפִלַּת מִנְחָה says that everybody says לְדוֹר וָדוֹר together with the Shliach Tzibbur.

שְּׁלִיחַ הַצִבּוּר כָּל הַשְּׁמֹנֶה עֶשְׂרֵה עִם הַקַּדִּישׁ, יַעֲבוֹר זְמַן הַתְּפִלָּה, יַמְתִּין וְיִתְפַּלֵּל בְּלַחַשׁ עִם שְּׁלִיחַ הַצִבּוּר בַּחֲזָרַת הַתְּפִלָּה מִלָּה בְּמִלָּה, וְאוֹמֵר עִמּוֹ כָּל נֹסַח הַקְּדֻשָּׁה, וְגַם לְדוֹר וָדוֹר וְכוּ', כְּמוֹ שֶׁהוּא אוֹמֵר, וִיסַיֵּם עִמּוֹ בְּשָׁוֶה בִּרְכַּת הָאֵל הַקָּדוֹשׁ וּבִרְכַּת שׁוֹמֵעַ תְּפִלָּה. ‏

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    From what i understand, this is dealing with an individual who comes late and davens in unison with the normal chazzan's repetition. Not a minyan that lechatchila has a heicha kedusha. – Scimonster Mar 26 '17 at 10:15
  • @Scimonster is right. 69 (6) deals with the heicha kedusha. – Avrohom Yitzchok Mar 26 '17 at 13:09
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    @avr the point is you can say ledor for your personal obligation if you're reciting in public. I don't know why anyone thought you couldn't. The question doesn't even start. The chazzan is motzi people in their individual obligation with ledor! That's the whole point of the repetition! Some prayers just have different nuschaot when recited beTzibbur – Double AA Mar 26 '17 at 13:33

The translation of the Kitzur in Code of Jewish Law Gantfried - Goldin, volume 2 Chapter 69 Halacha 6 says what to do but does not say explicitly which to do. The implication may be l'dor vador.

If the prescribed time for the Mincha prayer is limited because nightfall is approaching, then the hazan after saying the half-kaddish, should immediately begin reading the Shemonah Esaraeh aloud. The congregation should only listen and make the necessary responses until he say Hael Hakadosh (the holy G0d), to which all respond Amen. Then they silently recite the Shmone esreh.

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