5

There are certain colleges out there that have a Torah learning component to them. For example: Gemara morning Seder 10am - 1pm, then Shiur is 1-2:30, then college classes.

In a case where one isn't attending the college, is it permissible to attend shiur if the college doesn't mind non-students learning in Seder but prohibits them attending shiur?

The reason maybe it's allowed is זה נהנה זה לא חסר. Would that principle apply here? Is there other aspects that must be considered?

Recap: Is there any problem with going to a shiur without paying. Is an institution or yeshiva able to require people to pay in order to hear shiur?

  • 1
    are you familiar with YU? Are you looking for a school or an halachic discussion? – rosends Nov 27 '16 at 13:05
  • 2
    What does college have to do with it? The same applies to any Yeshiva that you don't want to pay tuition for. – Double AA Nov 27 '16 at 13:49
  • 2
    It's just details . Does it matter? Please explain your reasoning for down voting – huddie96 Nov 27 '16 at 14:11
  • 2
    Yoma 35b: אמרו עליו על הלל הזקן שבכל יום ויום היה עושה ומשתכר בטרעפיק חציו היה נותן לשומר בית המדרש וחציו לפרנסתו ולפרנסת אנשי ביתו פעם אחת לא מצא להשתכר ולא הניחו שומר בית המדרש להכנס עלה ונתלה וישב על פי ארובה כדי שישמע דברי אלהים חיים מפי שמעיה ואבטליון אמרו אותו היום ערב שבת היה ותקופת טבת היתה וירד עליו שלג מן השמים כשעלה עמוד השחר אמר לו שמעיה לאבטליון אבטליון אחי בכל יום הבית מאיר והיום אפל שמא יום המעונן הוא הציצו עיניהן וראו דמות אדם בארובה עלו ומצאו עליו רום שלש אמות שלג פרקוהו והרחיצוהו וסיכוהו והושיבוהו כנגד המדורה אמרו ראוי זה לחלל עליו את השבת – kouty Nov 28 '16 at 13:45
  • 2
    "Is there any problem with creating an institution or yeshiva that requires people to pay in order to hear shiur?" How else do you expect any institution to function? Someone needs to pay the bills. Is every Jewish institution supposed to run on charity alone? – Double AA Nov 28 '16 at 14:02
5

If the entrance is not free, it seems from the Gemara that you cannot enter. A similar case is cited in Gemara Yoma 35b.

Yoma 35b:

אמרו עליו על הלל הזקן שבכל יום ויום היה עושה ומשתכר בטרעפיק חציו היה נותן לשומר בית המדרש וחציו לפרנסתו ולפרנסת אנשי ביתו פעם אחת לא מצא להשתכר ולא הניחו שומר בית המדרש להכנס עלה ונתלה וישב על פי ארובה כדי שישמע דברי אלהים חיים מפי שמעיה ואבטליון אמרו אותו היום ערב שבת היה ותקופת טבת היתה וירד עליו שלג מן השמים כשעלה עמוד השחר אמר לו שמעיה לאבטליון אבטליון אחי בכל יום הבית מאיר והיום אפל שמא יום המעונן הוא הציצו עיניהן וראו דמות אדם בארובה עלו ומצאו עליו רום שלש אמות שלג פרקוהו והרחיצוהו וסיכוהו והושיבוהו כנגד המדורה אמרו ראוי זה לחלל עליו את השבת

It was reported about Hillel the Elder that every day he used to work and earn one tropaik, half of which he would give to the guard at the House of Learning, the other half being spent for his food and for that of his family.

One day he found nothing to earn and the guard at the House of Learning would not permit him to enter.

He climbed up and sat upon the window, to hear the words of the living God from the mouth of Shemayah and Abtalion - They say, that day was the eve of Sabbath in the winter solstice and snow fell down upon him from heaven.

When the dawn rose, Shemayah said to Abtalion: Brother Abtalion, on every day this house is light and to-day it is dark, is it perhaps a cloudy day.

They looked up and saw the figure of a man in the window.

They went up and found him covered by three cubits of snow.

They removed him, bathed and anointed him and placed him opposite the fire and they said: This man deserves that the Sabbath be profaned on his behalf.

Conclusion, if the Shiur is audible outside the door, you can hear, but maybe that you cannot go into the bet midrash.

An other topic is if only morally accredited students can be admitted (Berachot 28a):

For Rabban Gamaliel had issued a proclamation [saying].

No disciple whose character does not correspond to his exterior may enter the Beth ha-Midrash.

On that day many stools were added.

Takeway (thanks to @DoubleAA) the Bet Midrash is entitled to set the conditions of admission to Shiur.

  • 1
    Didnt rabbi gamliel get removed and they added seats and it was seen as a good thing that more could learn? Also doesn't mean they have the athority to make any restrictions. Just certain ones maybe – huddie96 Nov 28 '16 at 14:49
  • 1
    @huddie96 yes but this is not linked to the paiement i think, also RG was not wrong but his oponents opinion wins – kouty Nov 28 '16 at 14:51

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .