When Tishah BeAv falls on Shabbat and the fast is postponed to the next day, or when Tishah BeAv falls on Sunday, the problem arises how to deal with the requirement of making havdalah over a cup of wine (or another drink). The positions generally discussed are: (1) to perform havdalah immediately after Shabbat but to give the wine to a minor; (2) to omit havdalah; (3) to perform havdalah the following night. The actual halachah has been determined by the Sages according to opinion (3).

I expected a fourth opinion to be part of this discussion, which is reciting the havdalah formula immediately after Shabbat but without a cup of wine (or another drink). According to this option only the blessing over the flame would be recited, followed by the havdalah formula (the blessings over wine and flagrances being omitted). In my opinion the reason for this fourth possibility lies in the fact that the havdalah formula doesn’t itself mention a cup of wine or in any way refer to it. Thus there seems to be no inherent necessity to recite this formula exclusively over a filled cup. So why can it not be recited “dry”?


3 Answers 3


The Mitzvah of Havdalah, as brought down in Brachoss 33a, is to make it on a cup. So if we're going to do anything to get around the Nine Days issue, it's not going to be something that completely nullifies the mitzvah of Havdalah.

  • 3
    "the Nine Days issue" The issue isn't the nine-days. The issue is the ninth day: Tisha Bav
    – Double AA
    Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 5:11
  • The argument in favour of postponing the recitation of the formula to the next day is based on the consideration that it is to be recited over a cup of wine, and in the absence of it cannot be recited. But perhaps this argument is incomplete and one can perhaps say that the formula is also recited over the flame (and the spices). So in case only one of these is present (i.c. the flame), it can still be recited at its proper time.
    – user12439
    Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 13:23
  • The spices and flame serve other purposes, though. The Gemara says pretty clearly that it has to be Havdalah "on a cup".
    – DonielF
    Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 14:16
  • Havdalah should be on a cup of wine, as mentioned in prev. comments. The problem, of course, is that on 9th Av, you can't drink the wine b/c of the fast. I understand that the purpouse of the blessing on the flame is to mark the distinction between the prohibition against lighting fire on Shabbat which becomes permitted after Shabbat, so that blessing is made. As for the entire havdalah ceremony, keep in mind, that one may say this up to Tuesday of the following week.
    – DanF
    Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 14:20
  • @DanF "I understand that the purpouse of the blessing on the flame is to mark the distinction between the prohibition against lighting fire on Shabbat which becomes permitted after Shabbat, so that blessing is made." I've seen that the reason we light a candle is to commemorate the gift of fire that was given to Adam Harishon on the first Motzei Shabbos. That's why there is only a blessing on fire on Motzai Shabbos, and not other times that Havdalah is made (i.e. after a weekday Yom Tov). Commented Aug 14, 2016 at 13:23

After a survey of the topic in Poskim, I think that the best way to approach the question is to focus on Baal Halachot Gedolot and Ramban (in the book Torat Haadam of Ramban) opinions .

1.The BHG examined a first possibility: to make Havdala on a wine cup before the sundown. This possibility was based on two halachot:

  1. Gemara clearly allows (Brachot 27b) to make Havdala on a cup before the end of Shabbat, (See SA OC 293,3)

  2. Shabbat afternoon before the sundown: The fast has not yet started.

  3. BHG excluded this possibility because that by the Birkat Havdala itself, the fast already started and he would not be able to drink the cup.

  4. BHG concluded that the right way is to make Havdala in Tefila and to wait until the end of the fast to make Havdala with a cup as someone who had no wine until Sunday. (based on Gemara Pesachim 107a "He who did not recite habdalah at the termination of the Sabbath proceeds to recite habdalah and time during the week (Rashi: until Wednesday).")

  5. Ramban handles this issue differently because that on this specific motsa'e Shabbat, Havdala on a cup is not only "technically impossible" but also "totally canceled" by Chachamim. So the Havdala is totally canceled. It is not only a lack of opportunity as it is e. g. the case for someone who has no wine. (See Rishonim Nazir 3a, Psachim 106a). How is it canceled?

We have a Mitsva of Havdala, some Rishonim see it as a Scriptural mitsva , others as a rabbinical mitsva. The format of this mitsva was stated in two ritual additions placed one in Tefila and one on a cup. nothing else.

This is illustrated by their different lectures of the Gemara Brachot 33a-b:

R'Shaman B'Abba said to R'Johanan: Let us see: It was the Men of the Great Synagogue who instituted for Israel blessings and prayers, sanctifications (Kiddsh) and habdalahs (Havdala). Let us see where they inserted them! -

  1. He replied: __At first they inserted it [the habdalah] in the Tefillah:
  2. when they [Israel] became richer, they instituted that it should be said over the cup [of wine]
  3. when they became poor again they again inserted it in the Tefillah__;
  4. and they said that one who has said habdalah in the Tefillah must say it [again] over the cup [of wine]....

Rabina said to Raba: What is the law? He replied to him: The same as in the case of sanctification (Kiddush) . Just as the sanctification, although it has been said in the Tefillah, is also said over the cup [of wine], so habdalah, although it has been said in the Tefillah, is also to be said over the cup [of wine].

Some Rishonim read it literally, havdala is a mitsva deorayta as kiddush, some else do not.

Thus, following the BHG, the particular situation of motsa'e Shabbat at Tish'a Beav is as if Jews became poor, and according to Ramban it is not.

Anshey Kneset Hagedola established only 2 manners to make Havdala: in Tefila and on cup. To make Beracha of havdala without cup is possible and outside of the Tefila is not an option. But without pronouncing the name of G-d it is possible.

An important detail of the suggia in Brachot is that you can and need to make tefila and then make a second havdala on a cup and there is problem of unnecessary bracha.


In this answer we learned 6 rules: 1.- for Havdala the first takana was to mention the end of Shabbat in tefila, and further to mention it also on a cup; 2.- It is possible in special situation (Oness), to make havdala in tefila or on a cup before the end of Shabbat; 3.- one who did not recite Havdala Motsa'e shabbat can recite further (on a cup); 4.- If motsa'e Shabbat falls on 9 av or 10 av, the view of Ramban is that there is no Takana from Anshe Knesset Hagedola to recite havdala on a cup of wine, so he recite in tefila only and if he did not, he needs to pray a second time in way to recite havdala; 5.- According to BHG, the takana to recite on a cup remains, the situation is as if he has no wine and knows that wine will come tomorrow. He will recite on wine after the fast. If he did not recite on tefila, he can wait the havdala with cup of tomorrow. 6.- We must be aware of 2 rules, the first: to make havdala, according to some Rishonim, as Rambam, is a scriptural mitsva, according to other a rabbinical mitsva; the second how to make this, in tefila or on a cup ceremonial with special blessing with name of god and kindom mention. To say simply hamavdil is a mitsva but does not fulfill the takana.


For purposes of Brevity, I will refrain explanations on Gemara and Tosfot.

Your question presuppose that, out of the havdala in Tefilat Haamida, there is a possibility to make Havdala without wine, as for instance, following some Geonim and Rishonim opinion, the blessings of Brit Mila on Yom Kippur or 9 beav are said without wine cup, or the Shehecheyanu of Yom Kippur is without wine.

See accurately the words of the Rambam Zmanim, Shabbat, Chapter 29.

The mitsva of Havdala itself is a mitsva MideOrayta following the Rambam opinion: Halacha 1:

א מִצְוַת עֲשֵׂה מִן הַתּוֹרָה לְקַדֵּשׁ [א] אֶת יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת בִּדְבָרִים שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (שמות כ-ח) 'זָכוֹר אֶת יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת לְקַדְּשׁוֹ'. כְּלוֹמַר זָכְרֵהוּ זְכִירַת שֶׁבַח וְקִדּוּשׁ. וְצָרִיךְ לְזָכְרֵהוּ בִּכְנִיסָתוֹ וּבִיצִיאָתוֹ. בִּכְנִיסָתוֹ בְּקִדּוּשׁ הַיּוֹם וּבִיצִיאָתוֹ בְּהַבְדָּלָה: ‏

short and loose translation: To remember the Shabbat, by words, at its starting time (Kiddush) and its ending time (Havdala).

Halacha 6:

ו __ מִדִּבְרֵי __סוֹפְרִים [ז] לְקַדֵּשׁ עַל הַיַּיִן וּלְהַבְדִּיל עַל הַיַּיִן. וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁהִבְדִּיל בַּתְּפִלָּה צָרִיךְ לְהַבְדִּיל עַל הַכּוֹס. ‏

Rabbinically we need to make Kiddush on wine and Havdala on wine. And even though he already made Havdala in prayer (Ata Chonantanu in Amida), he needs to make Havdala on a cup.

So, there is a Scriptural Mitsva of Kiddush and Havdala, which can be accomplished without wine. And Rabbinically, we need to make it with a cup of wine. And even if the mitsva was already made without wine, e.g. Havdala in Tefila, the rabbinical requirement to make it on wine is not fulfilled , to do this we need a second Havdala.

From the words of the Rambam, we can infer that the unique reason to make Havdala after the Havdala of the Tefila is the cup of wine. Thus, if someone already made Havdala in Tefila, he needs to make a second Havdala only with a cup of wine, so Poskim discussed if Tinok or Motsae 9 beAv, and for reasons of right education of children ("lemisrach"), the choice is to make Havdala after 9 beAv.

But the a question remains not solved: If someone forgot to say Havdala in Tefila. See Tur Siman 294 said something in name of Rabenu Yona, and further we will learn something about this last question:

וכתב הרבינו יונה אף אם אין לו כוס בלילה וסבר שיהיה לו למחר (כוס יין) אין צריך לחזור ולהתפלל אלא אם כן סבור שאף למחר לא יהיה לו ולפי זה אף בתשעה באב שחל באחד בשבת אם טעה ולא הבדיל בתפילה אין צריך לחזור ולהתפלל כיון שמבדיל על הכוס במוצאי תשעה באב. ‏ Rabbenu Yona wrote that if someone failed to say Havdala in Tefila and has no wine at home, if he believes to get wine tomorrow, no need to pray a second time for the Havdala part of the Tefila. ___And accordingly to this, if, when 9 Beav starts motsae Shabbat, one did forget Havdala in tefila of Maariv, there is no need to pray Maariv again, because of the intent to do Havdala after 9 beav.

You see that the importance of the wine in the Havdala is enough for wait the time of havdala. In other words, The Takana is DAVKA to make havdala on wine, not as brachot of Brit mila. without wine there is havdala in Tefila only.


next step. A Nazir with Havdala.

Following some Rishonim, even Nazir itself need to drink wine Kiddush and Havdala, but we rule as Rabenu Tam and the Rambam above that wine for K&H is derabanan. May be that Nazir need to find a Chamar Medina.

It seems that everyone who knows that he will not find wine and does not hearing from another need to pray Amida a second time with Havdala.

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