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I've recently seen a hashgacha around NYC called Cup-K or CupK. However, I have been able to find precious little about it and what I have found seems mostly to consist of unsubstiatable rumours. Does anyone have any knowledge of the reliability of this hashgacha? FWIW, it's the one used by the famous Second Avenue Deli.

Cup-K image

  • thanksaglatt.com/hechsher-directory/hechsher-directory says Stringency: Conservative (Restaurants open on Shabbat) – sabbahillel Jun 27 '16 at 10:22
  • @msh210, there's a reliable hashgacha in Boston which permits [at least some of] its restaurants to be open on Shabbat. However, one restaurant in particular, while it is known to have reliable certification, does not advertise its hashgacha, which is recognised on kashrut.com/agencies , whereas Cup-K is not. – Noach MiFrankfurt Jun 27 '16 at 12:11
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    @NoachMiFrankfurt, I don't know why you're telling me this. My comment was aimed at providing you or other potential answerers with an avenue of research toward answering your question. Yours seems to be aimed at... disagreeing with the Forward, perhaps? – msh210 Jun 27 '16 at 16:28
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    Great question. Can't provide any kind of substantial answer, but I will say that "cup K" is the go-to example of a "bad hechsher" in my community – SAH Nov 7 '16 at 16:03
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I happened to just now pass by this place called Eden kosher in Yonkers. Prominently displayed in their window is a kosher certificate from cup k. Intrigued I walked into the place and walked right out after seeing the Hebrew National cold cuts. I have no vendetta against anyone and I'm not telling anyone what to do I'm just a simple frum guy and nobody's rabbi, but this certification fails the standards of anybody who actually bothers to verify a hechsher.

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    Hebrew National is under the certification of Triangle-K hebrewnational.com/triangle-k-kosher-certified Maybe you should try bothering to verify things instead of assuming that certain brands aren't Kosher. – Double AA Sep 19 '16 at 18:45
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    @DoubleAA, many don't consider Triangle K reliable. – Noach MiFrankfurt Sep 20 '16 at 1:27
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    @NoachMiFrankfurt Indeed, but it doesn't "fail[] the standards of anybody who actually bothers to verify a hechsher" – Double AA Sep 20 '16 at 2:10
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Cup-K shows the citation below. Note the Stringency line (Conservative) on the hechsher listing. This would raise a question in my mind.

One question would be what is done on Shabat and could the non-Jew bring in food then to cook. Is it like a franchise that can only use franchise provided food (that is always under supervision) like Carvel or certain Yogurt places or like a regular restaurant.

Cup-K

Under the supervision of Rabbi Israel Mayer Steinberg of Vaad Harabonim Lameshmeret Hakashrut.

Stringency: Conservative (Restaurants open on Shabbat)

Restaurants:

Bhojan – New York City
Loving Hut – New York City (Penn Station)
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Your question seems to beg two things - Is it reliable, as well as some info about the hashgacha. As for info, I located this article about the supervising rabbi, Rabbi Israel Mayer Steinberg of Vaad Harabonim Lemeshmeret Hakashrut, as well as this article that focuses a bit more specifically on the 2nd Ave. Deli.

The controversy, as I understand it, relates to whether a place that is open on Shabbat can be considered kosher?

Rabbi Steinberg states that the 2nd Ave. Deli has been sold to a non-Jew on Shabbat, thus, he claims that this would avoid the concern for those that won't eat in a place run by a non Shabbat observant Jew. I can't state how well this rule works both in general as well as regarding the 2nd Ave. Deli. They may have other specific kashrut problems, in general, that are unrelated to the Shabbat issue.

As for another place called "Littlelads", which no longer exists, that place was vegan. I had eaten there several times, unaware that there was a Shomer-Shabbat and mashgiach temidi issue. So, obviously, my actions and opinion, on this place are based on ignorance.

In general, I am uncertain if a place being Shomer Shabbat is an absolute requirement for a place to be kosher. I know that most certifying agencies won't certify such a place. We know that a large piece of kosher certification in the U.S. is political. Essentially, Rabbi Steinberg is using a less-favored opinion that states that a place can remain open on Shabbat and still remain kosher because it's not Jewishly owned on Shabbat.

What I will try to research further is if Rabbi Steinberg certifies places that are owned by non-Shomer-Shabbat Jews that DON'T sell their store. That adds another piece to the "puzzle". However, even in this case, I'm not sure if being non-shomer-Shabbat would invalidate the actual kashrut of a restaurant assuming that the food is kosher, and, if they had a mashgiach temidi, which even many certified establishments don't have.

In short, we have a interesting vagueness...

  • As I commented in the thread below my OP, there is a well-known and reliable restaurant in Boston which has such a heter in its hashgacha. I know that most members of the Cambridge Orthodox community will eat food catered from either their milchig or their fleischig kitchen. – Noach MiFrankfurt Jun 27 '16 at 19:48
  • @NoachMiFrankfurt You mention that the "Cambridge Orthodox community will eat food catered from either their milchig or their fleischig kitchen". Is its hechsher Cup-K or another one? I'm unclear. If it's a different hechesher that's doing the same idea as Cup-K, then why arte you hesitant to rely on Cup-K? FWIW, there were a number of Orthodox people I knew that ate at Littlelads (see above). Perhaps, they were more trusting because it was vegan vs. trusting 2nd Ave. Deli. However, I think in case of 2nd Ave. Deli, they may have been using Hebrew National & maybe other probs w/ meat was issue – DanF Jun 27 '16 at 20:20
  • it's under the Badatz of Boston, which is listed in Kashrut.com's list. See kosher.mit.edu/kosher-boston for a list of local kosher places near me (the Cywiak hashgacha is also known as Badatz and is AFAIK also under the control of R' Yitzchok Aharon Korff of Zhvil) – Noach MiFrankfurt Jun 27 '16 at 21:33
  • @NoachMiFrankfurt OK. So that leads to the 2nd route. Badat'z Boston gives a hechsher to a place that's open on Shabbat. How is what Rav Steinberg doing different? (BTW, the YU cafeteria is open on Shabbat, though they don't collect money. How is that different?) – DanF Jun 27 '16 at 21:43
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    @NoachMiFrankfurt, Tevere is open on Saturdays, one hour after Sunset. – Yishai Sep 18 '16 at 3:17
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An issue that looms large in my mind is the choice of a hechsher name that sounds so much like another, very trusted hechsher. Call up a restaurant and ask who supervises them. If the answer is "Cup K" you might well think they said kof-k.

Also, the Cup-K is NOT included in any O list of accepted hechsherim that I have seen, such as:
http://www.ozny.org/kosher
http://www.crcweb.org/agency_list.php

Organizations that serve their communities by compiling lists of restaurants with acceptable hechshers try to create complete lists. It might be that one organization might miss an acceptable restaurant or hechsher, but it is highly unlikely that a pattern of omission arose by chance. In short, that pattern is more than an "unsubstantiated rumor".

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    I don't see how this qualifies as "knowledge of the reliability of this hashgacha". – Double AA Sep 23 '16 at 1:09
  • I guess that means they also don't have "knowledge of the reliability of this hashgacha". – Double AA Sep 23 '16 at 13:48
  • @DoubleAA What is likely is that they have knowledge of the person giving this hashgacha and do not approve of his standards. – Yehuda W Sep 23 '16 at 21:37
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    @YehudaW It's certainly possible. You of course have no way of knowing. Perhaps you should be just as careful as they are about mistakenly spreading incorrect info about others. – Double AA Sep 23 '16 at 21:49
  • @DoubleAA Statements by reliable organizations are indications that the low respect for the Cup-K is not an "unsubstiatable rumour" which is the wording of the question. Likewise the duplicitous choice of the hechsher name is relevant as well. – Yehuda W Sep 26 '16 at 14:20

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