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On a year in which the night we start to say ותן טל ומטר is a weekday night, if one forgets to say ותן ברכה by the מנחה before and doesn't realize that he forgot it until שקיעה, what is the Halacha regarding the right insertion to say by each שמונה עשרה?

  • MB 117:13 and Beur Halacha 233:1 seem relevant. Among other things, of course. – msh210 Dec 6 '15 at 6:00
  • @msh210 Why cite MB and not ShA 117:2? – Double AA Dec 6 '15 at 18:08
  • @DoubleAA I don't remember now and don't have it before me. But if that's relevant also then, sure, that too. – msh210 Dec 6 '15 at 20:36
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The fact that forgetting ותן ברכה justifies a repeat (or tashlumim if the time has passed) means it is an essential part of the amida. So the question becomes how does one make up for an essential part of the amida when the time has passed.

Generally for tashlumim one repeats twice the amida that should be said at the time one prays (e.g., twice maariv to make up for a missed minha). The kavana for the first amida is to pray the regular amida with tashlumim being the second amida (see sources here).

Now the tashlumim is not to be able to say ותן ברכה - it is to make up for an invalid amida. The way to make up for an invalid amida is to repeat the amida at the time one prays. As such it is logical to say twice ותן טל ומטר according to the rules of tashlumim.

See also here for additional sources, although I find some of the answers contradictory.

  • OTOH he hasn't solved anything, as I sourced in my answer. – Danny Schoemann Dec 8 '15 at 7:42
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    @DannySchoemann Yes he has. His previous Amida was nothing. His current Amida is an Amida. Problem solved. – Double AA Dec 8 '15 at 16:01
  • @DoubleAA - to repeat my comment below: See ערוך השולחן in סימן קח - דידין מי שלא התפלל בטעות במקום שלא ירויח מאומה בתפילת ההשלמה,....יש מרבותינו דסבירא להו דבכהאי גוונא אינו צריך לחזור ולהתפלל (תוספות בשם ר''י ריש פרק רביעי – so not everybody agrees with your assertion. – Danny Schoemann Dec 9 '15 at 7:27
  • @DannySchoemann Right, but not everybody agrees with your assertion in your first comment either :) Stop quoting only one side of things. – Double AA Dec 9 '15 at 14:58
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It seems that this may be a problem, since you don't gain anything by repeating the Amida at Maariv with ותן טל ומטר since you already did that.

(In other words, you didn't say ותן ברכה the first time, nor the second, so what have you achieved by repeating the Amida?)

See the Aruch Hashulchan in סימן קח - דידין מי שלא התפלל בטעות who mentions similar, but not identical cases:

כ: וכיון שצריך להתפלל תפילת התשלומין כפי נוסח תפילה של חובה, אף על פי שאינה כפי נוסח התפילה שהוא חייב לשלם, ואם כן יש להסתפק להיפך: במקום שלא ירויח מאומה בתפילת ההשלמה, כגון שלא אמר ''יעלה ויבוא'' בראש חודש במנחה, וצריך להתפלל ערבית שתים בלא ''יעלה ויבוא'', ואם כן מה ישתכר, הלא התפלל בלא ''יעלה ויבוא''? או כגון שטעה במנחה של שבת והתפלל שמונה עשרה ברכות של חול, שהדין שצריך לחזור ולהתפלל של שבת, ונזכר במוצאי שבת וצריך להתפלל שתים של חול. ומה ירויח, הלא כבר התפלל תפילה זו?‏
ולכן יש מרבותינו דסבירא להו דבכהאי גוונא אינו צריך לחזור ולהתפלל (תוספות בשם ר''י ריש פרק רביעי). אבל יש מרבותינו שפסקו דצריך לחזור ולהתפלל, משום דמה שהתפלל הוה כאילו אינו מפני שלא התפלל כדין, ולא כן כשמתפלל כזה הוי כדין (שם). וכן פסקו גדולי הפוסקים והטור והשולחן ערוך סעיף י''א, עיין שם.‏
ופשוט הוא דאם ירויח בתפילתו, כגון שגם בלילה ראש חודש, או שטעה במנחה ביום טוב ראשון, או שכח ''טל ומטר'' או ''משיב הרוח'', דגם לדעה ראשונה יחזור ויתפלל. ודע דאף על גב דהלכה כדעה אחרונה, מכל מקום פסקו שיכוין להתפללה בתורת נדבה. ואין הפסד בזה כדי לצאת ידי דעה ראשונה. אבל אינו צריך לחדש בה דבר, מפני שהעיקר כדעה אחרונה.‏

I don't see anybody discussing your scenario explicitly, since it's unusual to err after half a year of using the other version. :-)

  • It's not as unusual, perhaps, to mistakenly start earlier on Dec 4 – Double AA Dec 7 '15 at 14:27
  • @DoubleAA Possibly, but the Poskim seem to skip this particular scenario.. – Danny Schoemann Dec 8 '15 at 7:39
  • The question is what happens if he forgot to say v'ten beracha. Your case is what happens if He knows that he did not say v'ten beracha. – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Dec 8 '15 at 8:36
  • @RYisroelMeirVogel In the question, he realizes that he didn't say ותן ברכה after שקיעה. – Daniel Dec 8 '15 at 15:43
  • @DannySchoemann Immediately after the second piece that you bolded, he goes on to quote an opinion that you should repeat the shmoneh esrei and mentions that the Tur and the Shulchan Arukh rule that way. – Daniel Dec 8 '15 at 15:47
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DannyS I think that is a different question. The questioner seemed to be clear (to me) that he was not sure "one forgot to [consciously] say" the correct form, ie v'ten beracha.

As for your case, if someone knows that he erred by saying v'ten tal u'mattar early, I saw a Rabbi Daniel Sperling (yeshiva.org.il 5773, ask the Rabbi) who quoted Ishei Israel (23,45) that it would depend where it occurred. In Eretz Yisroel, we really could use rain immediately after Sukkos, but we refrain from doing so because it took two weeks to return from Aliyah l'regel to the further parts of Yerushalayim. It wouldn't be kind to daven for rain before the last Olei Regel get home, but if one did, the rain would be needed and appreciated so one should not repeat.

However, in Chutz laAretz, rain is (presumably) not needed until 60 days after the tekufah of Tishri. Therefore, if someone said v'ten tal u'mattar one day early, he should repeat shmoneh esrei. (End of Rabbi Sperling's response.)

Based on a quick reading of relevant passages in Shulchan Aruch and Mishneh Berura available to me at present, there is reason to say that in such a case it would be worthwhile to make a condition in one's mind: "If this is necessary then I am saying it for a tashlumim" "OTOH if it is not necessary, I am saying the extra Amidah as a Nedavah" (Donation Amidah).

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it makes no difference why you need to repeat shmonei esrai you say according to how you need to daven NOW even if you missed/messed up a different nusach/tefilla

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    Since the vast majority of us don't know you, we have no reason to take your word on this. So you'd do well to edit into your answer a source for its claim. – msh210 Dec 7 '15 at 4:37
  • Not so simple - since the hashlomo doesn't solve anything. So ערוך השולחן in סימן קח - דידין מי שלא התפלל בטעות במקום שלא ירויח מאומה בתפילת ההשלמה,....יש מרבותינו דסבירא להו דבכהאי גוונא אינו צריך לחזור ולהתפלל (תוספות בשם ר''י ריש פרק רביעי – Danny Schoemann Dec 7 '15 at 10:50
-1

I don't see a scenario where it would be possible that one halachic ally is considered as having "forgotten to say "v'ten beracha" in the earlier Amidah.

If he is not sure whether he said it, and he has been saying v'ten beracha all along, (for over 7 months, since Pesach), then the Halacha assumes that he said the correct thing. Actually, once 30 days (some question whether 90 or 100 repetitions of Amidah are necessary) have gone by with correctly saying an addition/substitution, Halacha assumes from the next day forward that you have definitely said the Amidah correctly.

Problem solved.

  • 1
    -1 What about if he mistakenly thinks he needs to start a day earlier? – Danny Schoemann Dec 8 '15 at 7:41
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    That is a different question. – R Yisroel Meir Vogel Dec 8 '15 at 8:37

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