4

Let's say that you are the only qualified Ba'al Tefilah in a small summer community that has just 1 shul. (Yes, it does happen!)

Shabbat starts late (around 8:15 PM, say). You have a disabled child who is on a strict schedule and cannot stay up later. Your wife wants to start Shabbat early so that the family can have the Shabbat meal together before your child most be in bed.

We know that you can't eat or drink before making Kiddush. I also assume that making Kiddush is an acceptance of Shabbat. And, once you have accepted Shabbat, how can you say a weekday mincha afterwards? But the shul is counting on you to say mincha because no one else can do *chazarat hashat"z" except you. (Other cong. are old people who can't stand on the bimah for that long.)

What should you do regarding Kiddush & mincha?

Should you say mincha home, make kiddus & eat, go to shul but have everyone else daven mincha for themselves, then you can say Kabalat Shabbat & ma'ariv?

What about saying the Kiddush in shul? Can or should you do that, even though you already made Kiddush at home?

Any other scenario?

  • 1
    Have a pseudo Shabbat meal, that the kids think is Shabbat. Then have a short real Shabbat meal later. – Double AA Aug 11 '15 at 18:15
  • @DoubleAA Isn't there some rule that once the time for Kiddush arrives, you are not alowed to eat anything at all or even drink water? – DanF Aug 11 '15 at 18:21
  • Sure but who cares? Why does that matter here? – Double AA Aug 11 '15 at 18:22
  • @DoubleAA See Ramban gittin 38b also Rambam Hilchos Shabbos 30:4 and Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 249:2 who prohibit your solution... – Loewian Aug 11 '15 at 22:55
  • @Loewian They do not. I said pseudo Shabbat meal. – Double AA Aug 12 '15 at 1:27
1

When my children were very young, we would eat dinner early (5 or 6) and let them stay up for kiddush after shul. Since it is earlier than the earliest candle lighting, there is no problem with eating. Since it is earlier than the earliest candle lighting time, we could not accept shabbos, and would thus be able to eat, since the meal will not run into the time for accepting shabbos. Additionally, since one has already planned to accept shabbos at a specific time, one can eat earlier without having the problem of "interfering" with kabbolas shabbas.

If they are young enough to fall asleep earlier than kiddush, you still had the family meal together. If they are old enough to have kiddush with the family, they still ate and can go to bed immediately after kiddush. They also feel very "grown up" to be able to have kiddush.

Note that this was the normal time that we gave the children supper and we would have seudas shabbas after kiddush.

Note the discussion at EATING BEFORE KIDDUSH and HAVDALAH

The prohibition against eating begins as soon as one "accepts" Shabbos, or inevitably at sunset. Women generally "accept" Shabbos when they light candles and they should not eat or drink after that. If, however, one is extremely thirsty after lighting candles, she may take a drink until she verbally "accepts" Shabbos upon herself(See Da'as Torah 271:4).

  • The last quotation addresses my concern. Thank you. – DanF Aug 11 '15 at 20:18
  • Rambam Hilchos Shabbos 30:4 and Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 249:2 prohibit your solution... – Loewian Aug 11 '15 at 23:07
  • אָסוּר לִקְבֹּעַ בְּעֶרֶב שַׁבָּת סְעֻדָּה וּמִשְׁתֶּה שֶׁאֵינוֹ רָגִיל בִּימֵי הַחֹל וַאֲפִלּוּ הִיא סְעֻדַּת אֵרוּסִין מִפְּנֵי כְּבוֹד הַשַּׁבָּת שֶׁיִּכָּנֵס לְשַׁבָּת כְּשֶׁהוּא תָּאֵב לֶאֱכֹל וְכָל הַיּוֹם בִּכְלַל הָאִסוּר הַגָּה: וּסְעֻדָּה שֶׁזְּמַנָּהּ עֶרֶב שַׁבָּת, כְּגוֹן בְּרִית מִילָה אוֹ פִּדְיוֹן הַבֵּן, מֻתָּר, כֵּן נ''ל וְכֵן הַמִּנְהָג פָּשׁוּט. וְלֶאֱכֹל וְלִשְׁתּוֹת בְּלִי קְבִיעוּת סְעֻדָּה, אֲפִלּוּ סְעֻדָּה שֶׁרָגִיל בָּהּ בַּחֹל, כָּל הַיּוֹם מֻתָּר לְהַתְחִיל מִן הַדִּין, אֲבָל מִצְוָה לְהִמָּנַע מִלִּקְבֹּעַ סְעֻדָּה שֶׁנָּהוּג בָּהּ בַּחֹל, מִט' שָׁעוֹת וּלְמַעְלָה – Loewian Aug 11 '15 at 23:08
  • 1
    @Loewian Actually, when the children were that young, it was the same time as during the week as well. – sabbahillel Aug 11 '15 at 23:21
  • @Loewian See comments impugning your claim in its other locations. – Double AA Aug 12 '15 at 1:27
0

My wife lets them stay up for candle-lighting which seems to satisfy them. Depending how late it is, you could also let them stay up for kiddush/hamotzi (which we've also done). However, actually eating a full meal with them without accepting Shabbos should be a problem. See Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 249:2:

אָסוּר לִקְבֹּעַ בְּעֶרֶב שַׁבָּת סְעֻדָּה וּמִשְׁתֶּה שֶׁאֵינוֹ רָגִיל בִּימֵי הַחֹל, וַאֲפִלּוּ הִיא סְעֻדַּת אֵרוּסִין, מִפְּנֵי כְּבוֹד הַשַּׁבָּת, שֶׁיִּכָּנֵס לְשַׁבָּת כְּשֶׁהוּא תָּאֵב לֶאֱכֹל; וְכָל הַיּוֹם בִּכְלַל הָאִסוּר. הַגָּה: וּסְעֻדָּה שֶׁזְּמַנָּהּ עֶרֶב שַׁבָּת, כְּגוֹן בְּרִית מִילָה אוֹ פִּדְיוֹן הַבֵּן, מֻתָּר, כֵּן נ''ל וְכֵן הַמִּנְהָג פָּשׁוּט. וְלֶאֱכֹל וְלִשְׁתּוֹת בְּלִי קְבִיעוּת סְעֻדָּה, אֲפִלּוּ סְעֻדָּה שֶׁרָגִיל בָּהּ בַּחֹל, כָּל הַיּוֹם מֻתָּר לְהַתְחִיל מִן הַדִּין, אֲבָל מִצְוָה לְהִמָּנַע מִלִּקְבֹּעַ סְעֻדָּה שֶׁנָּהוּג בָּהּ בַּחֹל, מִט' שָׁעוֹת וּלְמַעְלָה.

It's forbidden to have a fixed meal (as opposed to a snack) or drinking-party on Friday that isn't usual to a weekday, even if it's an engagement party, in order to honer the Sabbath, that he should enter it hungry; and the entire day is included in this prohibition. Gloss (of the Rama): A meal who's time is (halachically) supposed to be on Friday, e.g. a brit or redemption of firstborn, is allowed, so it seems to me and so is the widespread custom. But to begin eating and drinking without fixing a meal, even a regular meal of the week, is allowed according to the (letter of) the law, but ideally (lit: mitzvah - commandment) one should refrain from fixing a meal that is kept during the week, from nine hours (after sunrise) and onward.

(See also the first issue of Hakirah where the editor [admittedly controversially] takes issue with the concept of the early shabbos altogether.)

  • could you translate it, for those who don't read hebrew? – havarka Aug 12 '15 at 1:22
  • So avoid eating bread or fully stuffing one's self. Furthermore as this is for Chinukh purposes it could well qualify as being had for Mitzva purposes, cf judaism.stackexchange.com/a/17715/759. – Double AA Aug 12 '15 at 1:26
  • If I understand @DoubleAA's interpretation of a pseudo-meal, it looks like he's referring to what's mentioned in the 2nd to last line of the above quote, which says explicitly that this is permitted. Am I getting this right? – DanF Aug 12 '15 at 1:59
  • Nice article. Essentially, the only opinions that extend full Kedushat Shabbat earlier than astronomical sunset are the (generally rejected) RT-Zman-nicks. And even the MB's suggestion is poor bc most of the meal is then b'issur. – Double AA Aug 12 '15 at 2:21
  • @DoubleAA re "Furthermore..." On the contrary, the chinuch should perhaps be that we don't have a fixed meal on erev shabbos. (Rav Moshe in another igeres for this reason forbids a minyan of ketanim. I assume he would also have a problem with children's tzitzis.) – Loewian Aug 12 '15 at 15:08

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .