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One year, during hashkama minyan in my shul, the chazan forgot to say Tal as part of Musaph on the 1st day of Pesach. The shul davens nusach Ashkenaz, and the chazzan did not say Mashiv Haru'ach in his repetition.

No one in the minyan noticed anything until after davening was over. During kiddush, I told the chazan that he forgot to say Tal.

I assume that if davening has concluded, one need not say Tal at all, as it is not a mandatory part of davening as it is piyutim. But, I'm curious if the chazzan had remembered at any time during the repetition of Musaph, should he have inserted Tal there, go back to the beginning of Musaf, or just ignore it and continue Musaph?

Another option - Can Tal be said at any time during the day? For example, can it be included in Mincha?

My question would apply to Tefillat Geshem as well. I'd imagine the rules would be the same.

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    To clarify, I think the only issue of halachic significance is whether one says the appropriate formula in the amidah, 'mashiv ha-ruah u-morid ha-geshem' or the alternative, and at what point one switches over. Tefillot Geshem and Tal are significant in that they announce the switchover to people, so that they can daven appropriately-, but they don't have halachic significance beyond that.
    – paquda
    Mar 29, 2017 at 19:44
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat.
    – DanF
    Mar 29, 2017 at 20:21
  • @paquda on Shemini Atzeret we say mashiv haruach in the silent shmoneh esrei even before the chazan says Geshem
    – Daniel
    Mar 29, 2017 at 21:44
  • @daniel Not everyone does. Also some say mashiv haruach in the summer too; it's only morid hageshem that is of any time sensitive importance here
    – Double AA ♦
    Mar 29, 2017 at 22:41

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I assume that if davening has concluded, one need not say Tal at all, as it is not a mandatory part of davening as it is piyutim.

Correct. In Nussach Yeshivish in Eretz Yisrael (based on the Gr"a, I assume) they do not say Tal during the repetition of the Amida, but rather (an abridged version) before the Kaddish of the silent Amida. So we see it's not part of the repetition.

But, I'm curious if the chazzan had remembered at any time during the repetition of Musaph, should he have inserted Tal there, go back to the beginning of Musaf, or just ignore it and continue Musaph?

Those Piyutim that are said after "Mechaye Hameithim" can be said at their correct place even if he forgot the earlier ones.
One would have to study the other Piyutim to see if they are relevant to other sections and if they can be moved around. Those that are Bracha-specific (i.e. explicitly refer to a specific Bracha) probably shouldn't be said anywhere else, as they may be irrelevant to another section.

Another option - Can Tal be said at any time during the day? For example, can it be included in Mincha?

Since it's simply a prayer for rain, it can be said any time. But it cannot be included in the Amida except in the 2nd Bracha where it belongs. Since we say Piyutim during Mincha on Yom Kippur, I assume it's OK to add Tal in Mincha, if everybody forgot during Mussaf.

My question would apply to Tefillat Geshem as well. I'd imagine the rules would be the same.

I see no reason why not.

What are the above assumptions based on?

  • I could not find anybody who talks about the entire congregation forgetting Tal or Geshem.
  • From a strict Halachic POV there's no need for the Tal/Geshem "Piyutim" - all one needs is the announcement from the Chazzan.
    • Since for (old fashioned) Ashkenazim there's nothing to announce for Tal, the fact that the Chazzan skipped Mashiv Haruach in Mussaf is the signal to stop saying it in from Mincha onwards.
    • Or, some announce "Machalkel Chaim" before Mussaf as a signal to stop saying it in Mussaf already.
    • Those who say "Morid HaTal" can announce that before Mussaf as a signal to stop saying it in Mussaf already.
  • Same for Geshem, if Mashiv HaRuach is announced before Mussaf, one doesn't say it in Mussaf, else one stops in Mincha having heard it from the Chazzan in Mussaf.

See Shulchan Aruch 114 - סימן קיד - דין הזכרת הרוח וגשם וטל - for these rules in the original.

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  • "I would assume he cannot say it, since it has no relevance to that part of Mussaf." This is not totally true. The Tal and Geshem Piyutim have stanzas that go all the way through the Amida, just like the Piyutim on Shabbat Shekalim for instance. Most Siddurim only print the first two, but in theory perhaps one could say the latter ones in their proper places.
    – Double AA ♦
    Apr 3, 2017 at 15:05
  • For instance, the after Kedusha the Chazzan would add עב ענני גשומים /עלי דשא היות מגשימים / מים עצורים בחטא אשמים / עתה בעתר תתיר היות מגשמים / עם מקדישך בגבורות גשמים / בא״י הא-ל הקדוש
    – Double AA ♦
    Apr 3, 2017 at 15:08
  • Thank you @DoubleAA - I shall revise my answer. Haven't said those Piyutim in over 30 years.
    – Danny Schoemann
    Apr 3, 2017 at 15:13
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    I have never heard of "Nussach Yeshivish". Is this unique to Israel? Do you have a link that describes any aspects of this Nusach?
    – DanF
    Apr 3, 2017 at 16:37
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    @DannySchoemann omitting piyuttim except on Rosh Hashannah is not unique to "yeshivish". Since my childhood shul, theer was not one Nusach Ashkenaz shul I attended (and I'd estimate it's been close to 100 different ones) that has said piyyutim on Yom Tov or 4 parshiot. Too bad, IMO. They're meaningful, if you studied them. I think either people don't care much either way, or more likely, it's because they want to get to the kugel and chulent more quickly.
    – DanF
    Apr 6, 2017 at 14:08

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