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At the seder, the third cup of wine is drunk after Birkat Hamazon. If a person has plenty of wine, but no matzah (and hence no Birkat Hamazon), should he still drink the third cup of wine?

If so, should he just drink it right before saying Hallel when he finished his meal (but cannot bench), or should he say it along with another blessing/Mitzva? If so, at what point?

  • for ashkenazim we would make a bracha anyhow since each cup is a separate mitzvah – sam Mar 26 '15 at 0:06
  • Just use the fifth cup as your fourth cup. – Double AA Mar 26 '15 at 0:43
  • @DoubleAA That seems like a good idea, but do you have a source? Maybe Hallel is supposed to be said davka on the fourth cup. – Ypnypn Mar 26 '15 at 3:06
  • I have a modern published source in the context of wheat allergies, but alas no classical one. – Double AA Mar 26 '15 at 3:12
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    I see nothing in Tur, SA, nos'e kelim on the page of either one, PMG, SA Harav, AHS, or MB, in 482 or 485 – msh210 Mar 26 '15 at 3:19
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Pesachim 117b:

ארבע כסי תיקנו רבנן דרך חירות כל חד וחד נעביד ביה מצוה
4 cups were instituted By the Chachamim, we should perform a Mitzva with each cup.

The Beis Yosef learns from here that bedieved one can drink 4 cups and be Yotzei as long as there is a gap in between each cup even without a mitzva Bircas hamozon or hallel.the Biur Halacha quotes the Beis Yosef as Halacha (Though the Pri Chodosh argues) Shulchan Aruch 472,8

שלא כסדר לא יצא: עיין מג"א שכתב דכסדר מיקרי כשאומר ההגדה בינתים והוא מדברי הרשב"ם ומשמע לכאורה דכשלא אמר ההגדה בינתים אפילו שהה בין כוס לכוס מיקרי שלא כסדר ולא יצא אכן מלשון הש"ס משמע דאיכא קפידא רק כשישתה אותן בבת אחת והיינו או כפירוש רש"י בפעם אחת או עכ"פ כפירוש שארי מפרשים אפילו בזה אחר זה רצופין אבל אם שהה בינתים אף דודאי עבר איסור מה שלא הסמיך אמירת ההגדה לכל כוס כמו שתקנו חכמים מכל מקום בדיעבד לא הפסיד הכוסות ומצאתי פלוגתא בזה בין הב"י להפר"ח עיין בבית יוסף בסימן תפ"ד לענין ברכת המזון ודעתו שם דבדיעבד יצא וכמש"כ ובפר"ח חולק שם עליו מהא דכאן דכשלא אמר על הסדר לא יצא ובאמת אין השגה מזה על הב"י

What we do when we have matza:is 1- Kiddush, 2- begining of hallel (end of Maggid), 3- bentching, 4- end of Hallel

The Rosh (Perek 10 pesachim siman 33), Rif,Ran and Ramban in Milchamos Hashem (see link) And Rambam Hilchos chomeitz umatza 8,10 one can make a 5th optional cup on the Mitzva of Hallel hagodol (tehilim 136):
ויש לו למזוג כוס חמישי ולומר עליו הלל הגדול מהודו לה' כי טוב עד על נהרות בבל. וכוס זה אינו חובה

So ideally since Chazal instituted a cup can be drunk on Hallel Hagadol (tehillim 136), since there is no Matza inorder to bentch* one should drink the four cups: 1- Kiddush, 2- begining of hallel (end of Maggid), 3- end of Hallel 4- hallel hagadol


*{In the questioners case where there is no ברכת המזון, Tosfos says in Pesachim 105b לא תקנו כוס אלא אחר סעודת לחם - That there was no institution of a cup of wine after any meal other than bread/Matza, there is no Mitzva after eating the matzaless meal to have a cup of wine and Chazal clearly stated ארבע כסי תיקנו רבנן דרך חירות כל חד וחד נעביד ביה מצוה, so one should fulfill the words of ChazaL to make drnk the wine on Hallel Hagadol which they gave the option to have a cup of wine because its a Mitzva.}

  • "That seems like a good idea, but do you have a source [that this is the recommended procedure in this case]? Maybe Hallel is supposed to be said davka on the fourth cup." -- said the OP – Double AA Apr 5 '18 at 12:11
  • Your source just says that you are Yotzei if you drink 4 anytime. It doesn't say the best option is to split Hallel. Maybe the best option is to say Al HaMichya from dinner on a third Kos and not split Hallel. Maybe the best option is to just drink a 4th Kos after Hallel because not all Rishonim agree with how to do the Hallel-splitting. Maybe you should drink a third Kos in the middle of Hallel without formally splitting it by saying Yehallelukha with a Chatima. (Maybe on Sat night you should say Havdala on a separate Kos.) – Double AA Apr 8 '18 at 16:29
  • @DoubleAA i've incoorperated your questions in my emended answer – user15464 Apr 10 '18 at 17:32
  • I'm not convinced there is nothing at all accomplished by saying Mein Shalosh (or frankly maybe any Berakha at all) on a Kos even though I agree it's clearly not obligatory. All the time Chazal just stick Berakhot on a Kos (Shehechiyanu, Besamim, Erusin, etc.) for no apparent reason, so probably we could too if we wanted to. Usually saying Mein Shalosh on a Kos is stupid since you have to then say it again, but here there's a point. – Double AA Apr 10 '18 at 17:39

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