On Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, the Shat"z says a short paragraph at the beginning of his repetition that starts with the words "מסוד חכמים ונבונים," which is an explanation for the insertion of extra piyutim in the middle of חזרת הש"ץ.

Why don't we have the Shat"z say מסוד for תפילת גשם and תפילת טל?
(Or if we do, why isn't it printed in the siddurim?)

  • 2
    related judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14420/759
    – Double AA
    Commented Oct 20, 2014 at 17:47
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    Just to note: Not all places say either Tefilat Tal or Tefilat Geshem as part of Chazarat ha-Shatz , but rather on its own before [the Chatzi Qadish before] the silent Musaf.
    – Tamir Evan
    Commented Oct 20, 2014 at 17:52
  • @TamirEvan I didn't know that....I've only ever heard Tal/Geshem in an Askenazi shul. Thanks for the info!
    – MTL
    Commented Oct 20, 2014 at 18:56
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    Shokhet @TamirEvan's comment is even for Ashk'nazi synagogues. Just fyi.
    – msh210
    Commented Oct 22, 2014 at 18:38
  • We don't say it for the Kerovos on Purim either - nor for many [all?] of the 4 special weeks before Nissan. Commented Oct 22, 2014 at 18:51

1 Answer 1


The קרובות for Musaph of Shemini Atzeres is known as a שבעתא and, although many consider the main part to זכור אב (in מנהג פולין) or איום זכור נא (in מנהג אשכנז), the main part was once אף-ברי. This פיוט, written by רבי אלעזר הקליר, was originally split into seven parts (hence, why it is known as a שבעתא). Each part was for a different ברכה in חזרת הש''ץ. The nature of a שבעתא is that each part of the פיוט is recited just before the חתימה of the ברכה (i.e. immediately before ברוך אתה השם...)

I do not know a source for the following. One is allowed מעיקר הדין to make you own תפלות before the חתימה of each ברכה in the עמידה. We see this in most סידורים with the ברכה of רפואה. Therefore, my theory is that when you have a שבעתא, where the פיוט is inserted just before the חתימה, it is like adding your own תפלות (even though it's in חזרת הש''ץ) and so מסוד חכמים ונבונים is not necessary.

The same can be said for the קרובות for Musaph of the first day of Pesach, which also was originally a שבעתא. We can apply this to the קרובות of Musaph for שבת שקלים and שבת החודש and originally for other days as well, like שבת זכור and שבת פרה.

The full שבעתא for Shemini Atzeres and First Day Pesach can be found in the Goldschmidt Koren Machzorim, the first of which can be viewed here. The שבעתא of שבת זכור and of שבת פרה are found in מחזור שבחי ישורון.

  • I don't think this answers the question. Also what is a קרובות
    – robev
    Commented Oct 15, 2017 at 16:01
  • @robev I have edited to make the answer more clear. Commented Oct 15, 2017 at 16:08
  • @robev Also, קרובות is פיוטים in חזרת הש''ץ. Commented Oct 15, 2017 at 16:09
  • An interesting parallel to you argument could be the מערבית Commented Jan 5, 2019 at 21:18
  • @robev קרובות is another spelling for קרובץ (the piyutim for Purim)
    – b a
    Commented Jan 5, 2019 at 23:41

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