1. I read somewhere that people who daven in the backroom of a shul (i.e. a hallway or on the balcony) are not יוצא davening with a tzibur, unless there happens to be a minyan in that room with them. Where is the halachic source for this?

  2. I also read somewhere that even if there is a minyan in the backroom (i.e. a hallway or on the balcony) they may have a problem with פורש מן הציבור and ברוב עם הדרת מלך. Where is the halachic source for this?

  • 1
    I'm confused by #1 -- why would you be yotzei if you aren't with a minyan? Is there some reason to believe that "in the same building" or "in the room next door" might be good enough? If so, your question would be stronger if you were to edit that in. Thanks. Commented Jul 20, 2014 at 21:04
  • 1
    @MonicaCellio it depends on the manner of separation between one room and the other. There are many details to these laws Commented Jul 20, 2014 at 23:40
  • Closely related: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/27406
    – msh210
    Commented Jul 21, 2014 at 4:38
  • For question 1, if answers why one WOULD be yotzei in such a situation are acceprtable, I can direct you to @Meir Zirkind answer: judaism.stackexchange.com/a/27408/537
    – Ze'ev
    Commented Dec 11, 2016 at 18:05
  • The place you read it is the source Commented Jan 1, 2018 at 1:51

2 Answers 2

  1. In a regular Shul as long as there there is already a minian (10 men) inside the main Prayer room it is permitted to daven just outside (within hearing distance) with the minian as long as you are in a clean area.

The source is Tur Orach chaim 55 here is a quote from the Bais Yosef with proofs from the vast majority of Rishonim. And a quote from the gemora Pesachim 85b "Even an iron barrier can not separate Klal Yisroel to there father in heaven (I.e the Shechina which dwells in the presence of a minian).

אבל אם היו עשרה במקום אחד ואומרים קדיש או קדושה, אפילו מי שאינו עמהם יכול לענות אחריהם וכו' — כן כתבו התוספות בסוף פרק כיצד צולין (פה: ד"ה וכן) ובסוף פרק ראוהו בית דין (כז: ד"ה ושמע), וכן כתב הר"ן והמרדכי שם, וכן הסכים הרשב"א בתשובה, וכתב שכן דעת הראב"ד ז"ל, ולאפוקי מדברי החולקים בזה מההיא דציבור בקטנה וש"ץ בגדולה אין יוצאין ידי חובתן, דההיא לענין צירוף איתמר, אבל כל שיש עם הש"ץ י', כל השומע קולו עונה קדיש או קדושה ואריך, מדרבי יהושע בן לוי דאמר: אפילו מחיצה של ברזל אינה מפסקת בין ישראל לאביהם שבשמים. מיהו כתב, דאיתא בירושלמי, שהשומע בביתו קדיש אין לו לענות אם יש באמצע מקום מטונף. ובשם רב אחא כתב: והוא דליכא טינוף מפסיק בהדיא, והוא דליכא גוי מפסיק בהדייהו, כך כתוב בארחות חיים, עכ"ל:

The Mishna brura 55,20 says clearly from the Teshuvas haRadvaz that the person in the side room not only can answer to Kadish and Kedusha, he is yotzei (fulfilled) his davening with the Tzibbur as long as he can hear them.

יכול לענות — אמן ואיש"ר וקדושה וברכו וכן יכול להוציאו ידי חובתו בתפלה אם אינו בקי:

In fact i have seen the Boyaner rebbe in Yerushalayim has his own davening room in the front of the tifferes yisroel shul on Malchei Yisroel road for this very reason,(he doesn't like people staring at him while he davens) which means if one can concentrate better it might be more ideal to Daven in a separate room.

  1. If you are a member of a Shul and have 2 members saying Kaddish and one gets a minian to go to the back room this is a norm nowadays and on Shacharis during the week and Maariv Motzei Shabbos most Shuls in heavily populated Jewish areas have multiple minyanim wherever they can find a space to Daven, this is called a "Shtiebel." Those who want to accuse in front of Hashem the way probably more than half of frum people in the world daven nowadays should bring proof from Gedolim before Accusing most of Klal Yisrael.

The issue of Brov Am is only a consideration if there's no other overriding reason. As mentioned in comments, Reb Moshe felt many smaller minyanim in more shuls was preferable. In fact the Magen Avrohom 90:15 seems to be an early source for this when it comes to davening with a minyan, and yet he himself states that bittul torah would override it

והוא שיתפלל בי'. ואף על גב דבב"הכ איכא רוב עם הדרת מלך מ"מ בב"המ עדיף שאין לבטל למודו מפני התפל' דמצינו ר"י הנשיא שלא היה מתפלל אלא משנה לשנה כמ"ש תר"י וקשה דבסי' רצ"ח סי"ד אמרי' דמבטלים בית המדרש משום ברוב עם הדרת מלך וצ"ל דשאני התם שאינו אלא שעה מועטת לא חשו חכמים וכ"מ בתר"י פ' אלו דברים ע"ש:

Having an avel or chiyuv seems to be accepted as an overriding reason. However there definitely is a halachic source for consideration of Brov Am although practically it may not be so relevant.

  • "Having an avel or chiyuv seems to be accepted as an overriding reason." Actually, not judaism.stackexchange.com/a/68128/759
    – Double AA
    Commented Jul 27, 2021 at 20:31
  • Actually, I'm not sure how this answers the question
    – Double AA
    Commented Jul 27, 2021 at 20:34
  • From the minhag in most shuls it seems to be accepted as a.m overriding reason. It answers question number 2 where OP asked for a halachic source. The Magen Avrohom, in my opinion, counts as a halachic source
    – Chatzkel
    Commented Jul 27, 2021 at 21:34
  • The Magen Avrohom certainly counts as a halachic source, but of what relevance is it to the question?
    – Double AA
    Commented Jul 27, 2021 at 21:35
  • Have you been to most shuls? I personally can't remember the last time I saw a shul split up to accommodate am-haaretz avelim.
    – Double AA
    Commented Jul 27, 2021 at 21:35

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