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If, on Shabbat, someone pours water from a kli shlishi (which according to all opinions I'm aware of) over coffee beans which are laying on a filter is there any problem with drinking the resulting coffee water? It doesn't seem like it would be bishul, borer, m'rakeid or nolad, so I'm not sure why it would be forbidden.

I'm not looking for psak halacha, just to understand the concept.

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Shemirath Shabbath, by R' YY Neuwirth (3:58), states very clearly that pouring water over tea leaves resting in a filter that is suspended over a cup, so that water passes through the filter into the cup, is not a problem of Borer. Using water cooled by transferring it to a third vessel (Keli Shelishi) is given there as an acceptable method for brewing fresh tea on Shabbath.

"Tea bags may be used to make tea on Shabbath, but only by putting them into water ... which is already in a keli shelishi..."

"...Boiling water may be poured into a strainer containing tea leaves, upon condition that the tea leaves were boiled up before Shabbath. This does not involve the prohibition against selection, since a) the strainer separates the water from the tea leaves immediately upon its being poured in and b) the water which comes out is the same water which has just been poured in, and it was separate and drinkable even before the whole process took place."

I don't think it is any stretch to apply this to coffee as well.

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  • Is R' Neuwrith's ruling based on the size of the tea leaves? Also, with a tea basket, the water drains out all at once, but with a coffee filter, the water drains slowly-- does that affect the psak?
    – Tatpurusha
    May 13, 2014 at 21:12
  • @Tatpurusha, that's a reasonable question. My assumption is no, because as a coffee enthusiast my observation is that it only drains slowly if you've done something wrong. (It's still slower than tea, I'll grant you.)
    – Seth J
    May 13, 2014 at 21:20
  • Are you quoting R Neuwirth in your statement about cooled water being acceptable for cooking tea on Shabbath?
    – Double AA ♦
    May 14, 2014 at 2:07
  • @double "Tea bags may be used to make tea on Shabbath, but only by putting them into water ... which is already in a keli shelishi..."
    – Seth J
    May 14, 2014 at 3:16
  • @double "...Boiling water may be poured into a strainer containing tea leaves, upon condition that the tea leaves were boiled up before Shabbath. This does not involve the prohibition against selection, since a) the strainer separates the water from the tea leaves immediately upon its being poured in and b) the water which comes out is the same water which has just been poured in, and it was separate and drinkable even before the whole process took place."
    – Seth J
    May 14, 2014 at 3:21
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You could find the appropriate combination of stringencies to make it a problem:

Kalei Habishul - if you would hold like the Mishna Berura (318:42) that we suspect everything of being kalei habishul (cooking even in a kli sheni) unless it is explicitly identified as otherwise.

Kli shlishi - if you would hold like the Chazon Ish that there is no such thing as a kli shlishi (i.e. everything after iruy kli rishon depends on the water still being hot - yad soledes bo)

Bishul Achar Afiah - if you would hold like R' Elazar of Mitz (cited in Beis Yosef O.C. 318) that there is a prohibition of cooking via liquid medium after having cooked through a direct heat medium.

Then pouring the hot water on these coffee beans would be a problem.

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  • You might also think that the fact that we make coffee this way proves it's Kalei Habishul, even without such far-reaching worries.
    – Double AA ♦
    May 14, 2014 at 3:57
  • YEZ, @double, wouldn't the same worry about Kalei HaBishul apply even more so to tea? The amount you need and the state they're in, I would think, would make tea the ultimate example of that. At least with coffee you can say you're not really doing anything to the coffee grinds themselves - you could argue (I'd disagree) like Tatpurusha's answer that this Bishul doesn't effect a change after the Tzli (or Afiyah) that the beans previously experienced.
    – Seth J
    May 14, 2014 at 12:42
  • @Seth Yes. Which is why cooking tea on Shabbat is forbidden according to many poskim. (Eg. Arukh Hashulchan, Mishna Berura, R Mordechai Willig)
    – Double AA ♦
    May 14, 2014 at 12:52
  • @SethJ what DoubleAA said. The question only addressed coffee.
    – Y     e     z
    May 14, 2014 at 17:43
  • @DoubleAA why does making it prove that? I make lots of mixtures that dissolve in liquid and aren't even hot. I'm misunderstanding something.
    – Y     e     z
    May 14, 2014 at 17:50
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There is no problem with bishul in this case, because coffee grounds, which are already roasted, are exempted (I think) from bishul under the category of אין בישול אחר בישול. The problem is with the filter; filters of all kinds are forbidden on Shabbos under the category of borer. http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/107/Q1/

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    Wrong. We hold Bishul after roasting. However, a Keli Shelishi doesn't cook. And this method of filtration is not considered Borer by at least one recognized authority.
    – Seth J
    May 13, 2014 at 20:53
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    @SethJ I've never heard that before. My impression is that anything that's been heated up before to either the point where it significantly changes or to yad sodales bo or does not change if heated (e.g. salt) is exempt from borer. Is this wrong?
    – Tatpurusha
    May 13, 2014 at 21:05
  • I think you mean exempt from Bishul, no?
    – Seth J
    May 13, 2014 at 21:08
  • @SethJ Yes, that...
    – Tatpurusha
    May 13, 2014 at 21:10
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    My understanding is that you are correct, sort of, but probably not here. The distinction, as I understand it, with Afiyah and Tzli, is because these things are fundamentally different from Bishul. Basically, Ein Bishul Ahar Bishul, but that's only when it's the same method of cooking, because, by definition, Bishul Ahar Bishul effects no change. Mah SheEin Kein when you use a different method, such as Afiyah or Tzli.
    – Seth J
    May 13, 2014 at 21:18
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It is permitted. Even according to the opinions that bishul achar afiah is a problem, over here the beans are raw. So if you use a kli shlishi, everything is ok even though it is kalei habishul because the Pri migadim says that kli shlishi will be ok. And once your bringing in the Chazon Ish, he holds that pouring from an urn to a cup gives the cup a status of a KLI RISHON because it is "attached" to the urn by the flow of the water so even after you take the cup away it still has a status of a kli rishon. Just food for thought

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