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At what stage does a born-Jewish messianic Jew's presence at and/ or participation in an Orthodox synagogue's kiddush make wine 'Yayin Nesech'?

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  • assuming the yayin is non-mevushal I presume?
    – TreeKing
    Jun 22, 2014 at 10:55

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Wine becomes yayin nesech when it is open and then is handled by a non-Jew or by a Jew who violates Shabbat or participates in avoda zara. "Messianic Judaism" could certainly be considered a form of avoda zara as discussed in other places on this site. So if the person touches an open bottle of wine, that wine would become prohibited.

If the wine is mevushal, though, there is no issue of yayin nesech because the wine is not considered fit for avoda zara libations. My experience is that most shuls use wine that is mevushal to get around the problem of someone attending kiddush who does not keep shabbat. Therefore, I would assume that your shul probably is also using mevushal wine and there is no problem. This is easy to check by looking at the label of the bottle.

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    touching the bottle is not sufficient. they have to move the wine
    – Double AA ♦
    Apr 25, 2014 at 13:55
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You are all incorrect. Wine only becomes nesech when used for a ritual in the name of an avoda Zara. However when a goy moves the wine it becomes yayin stam. There is a HUGE difference, yayin nesech is assure b'hana (forbidden to derive benefit), and nesech is forbidden on a biblical level. Yayin stam is a rabbinic ordinance but the prohibition only forbade consumption of the wine, however the rabbinate never forbade stam for benefit.

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  • The Rema says that one should not derive benefit from yayin stam.
    – Daniel
    Jun 27, 2014 at 8:01
  • Gemara avoda Zara says that ALL ameraim admit that you can derive benefit from yayin stam! And please show me where the Rema says that
    – David Feigen
    Jun 28, 2014 at 1:38
  • Yoreh De'ah 123:1 the Rema says lechatchila one should not derive benefit from Yayin stam. He is lenient in the case of great financial loss.
    – Daniel
    Jun 29, 2014 at 8:10
  • Your right, but it doesn't fit with the Gemara, the lashon in the Gemara seems to be lechatchila it's ok.
    – David Feigen
    Jul 3, 2014 at 5:38
  • This is a question of halacha lma'aseh. Not just what it says in the gemara
    – Daniel
    Jul 3, 2014 at 6:58
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Wouldn't a "Messianic Jew" be actively be participating in idolatry, therefore there use of wine in any regards be for idolatry thus no longer be kosher? Maybe I am thinking too much into this but would venture to guess that anyone practicing idolatry would make kosher wine non kosher once touched.

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    Welcome to MiYodeya Charles. Since MY is different from other sites you might be used to, see here for a guide which might help understand the site. See particularly the focus on sources as an important part in answers. Great to have you learn with us!
    – mbloch
    Sep 7, 2018 at 13:29

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