I have many times seen what appeared to be disrespectful pushing and shoving to get to kiss the Sefer Torah or the rebbe's hand. When inquiring about it, I was told that it shows devotion to the Torah (or the rebbe), and that it does not constitute transgression of otherwise quite obvious mitzvos (both positive and negative commandments).

What does Hashem want more, propriety or devotion? Where do we draw the line?

Inspired by this comment.

  • mitzva habaah baaveira... There has to be a good quote in Neviim Achronim about shoving the poor out of line in order to bring a big fat korban. Probably multiple such quotes. – Double AA Feb 11 '14 at 20:18
  • Mitzva habaah baaveira is a very complicated sugya, with many exceptions and which only applies to a few mitzvos. – Ypnypn Feb 11 '14 at 20:54
  • Sometimes I feel like it is partially a cultural thing. – Eliyahu Feb 11 '14 at 22:20
  • @Ypnypn I think you're missing the point of that din. – Double AA Mar 23 '14 at 19:20
  • timesofisrael.com/… – Double AA Jul 8 '16 at 3:27

The Mishna in Yoma 22 writes:

בראשונה כל מי שרוצה לתרום את המזבח תורם ובזמן שהן מרובין רצין ועולין בכבש כל הקודם את חבירו בארבע אמות זכה ואם היו שניהן שוין הממונה אומר להן הצביעו ומה הן מוציאין אחת או שתים ואין מוציאין אגודל במקדש מעשה שהיו שניהם שוין ורצין ועולין בכבש ודחף אחד מהן את חבירו ונפל ונשברה רגלו וכיון שראו בית דין שבאין לידי סכנה התקינו שלא יהו תורמין את המזבח אלא בפייס ארבע פייסות היו שם וזה הפייס הראשון

In short, it used to be a race to the top of the mizbaiach to do the trumas Hadashen (torem), but an incident happened that two kohanim went at the same time and one pushed the other one and the one that fell broke his leg. After that they made lotteries for the zchus.

On the next blatt 23 there is a story of one killing the winner.

It seems like it is not a good idea to push if one can get hurt.

  • 2
    Aderabah, they didn't object until there was serious injury; this shows that shoving is usually fine! – Ypnypn Feb 12 '14 at 3:11
  • 1
    What about pushing in general? Obviously a Safek Sakana is different. – Double AA Feb 12 '14 at 3:51
  • @ypnypn ,the gemara says the would race nit push each other,where are you inferring the pushed lchatchila? – sam Feb 12 '14 at 17:06
  • @DoubleAA , I was just learning this Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah 6:7 "...בני חכמים ותלמידי חכמים בזמן שהרבים צריכין להם מקפצין על ראשי העם ונכנסים למקומם... ,what do you think? – sam Jul 2 '14 at 2:55
  • The Mishna 4:4 in Sukkah has a similar decree to shake lulav at home because of fighting in temple – sam Dec 29 '14 at 16:41

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .