When we start saying mashiv haruach there is an important requirement of announcing the liturgical change. If one does not hear the announcement, one does not say mashiv until the community would have heard it (this presents the relevant halachos). Also according to the linked Mishna Berura, if one makes a mistake, one does not repeat.

But when we change to vtein Tal, there is no such mention in halacha of a public declaration even though the obligation is seemingly stronger (in that one who misses it DOES repeat - here, second paragraph). I am not sure if my question is why there is an announcement at mashiv haru'ach or why there is none by vtein tal, but it probably includes "why are the two treated differently in terms of public announcement?"

P.S. This question, though I came up with it this morning, is strikingly similar to an older, unanswered, and better-worded question posted by Akiva Miller to the Avodah email list.

  • Why do you say there's no announcement? There is in my synagogue.
    – msh210
    Commented Dec 8, 2013 at 7:40
  • There is no halachic obligation for there to be an announcement nor is there any requirement for there to have been an announcement before anyone's liturgy can change.
    – rosends
    Commented Dec 8, 2013 at 12:36
  • See what you think of my edit.
    – msh210
    Commented Dec 8, 2013 at 17:01
  • Note "vetain tal" and "mashiv haruach" are not actually important. It's "vetein matar" and "morid hageshem" that matter. You can say or not say "vetain tal" and "mashiv haruach" at any time in the summer or winter if you want and it won't help or hurt your Shemoneh Esrei.
    – Double AA
    Commented Jan 5, 2017 at 21:13
  • In the days of the great Paytanim (eg. HaKalir), Tein Mattar was added at the same time as Morid HaGeshem, so one announcement would work for both.
    – Double AA
    Commented Apr 3, 2017 at 15:26

3 Answers 3


In his Corona responsum, Rabbi Hershel Schachter cites Rabbi Soloveitchik zt"l that requests, including please give us rain, can be made of G-d at whatever point is appropriate; however, Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem is describing G-d's greatness. The individual is not authorized to change such descriptions willy-nilly, and thus a communal announcement is needed. (It's very Brisker!)


Here Rabbi Shimon Silver answers:

Since there is no musaf with its mention, the announcement and maximum public notice is not possible anyhow. Therefore, it reverts to its rightful place.

Once we are doing it by Ma'ariv, Ma'ariv is not an appropriate time for announcements at all, for the same reason that Mashiv HaRuach is not announced at Ma'ariv.

  • What does he mean by "its rightful place"?
    – Double AA
    Commented Dec 9, 2013 at 16:16
  • @DoubleAA, in Ma'ariv, as Mashiv HaRuach should have been in theory.
    – Yishai
    Commented Dec 9, 2013 at 16:17
  • But why isn't there a public announcement requirement at Maariv?
    – Double AA
    Commented Dec 9, 2013 at 16:19
  • @DoubleAA, there is no such thing as a public announcement at Ma'ariv of this nature, as Ma'ariv is not well attended, may not be a complete obligation, etc.
    – Yishai
    Commented Dec 9, 2013 at 16:25
  • Then AFAICT that is your answer, not what you put in the post.
    – Double AA
    Commented Dec 9, 2013 at 16:36

According to announcements sent out through Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz, someone should announce שאלה before Ma'ariv as an indicator that the kahal should remember to say ותן טל in ברך עלינו.

  • To be clear, that's the two syllable word "shay-la" (rhymes with high-duh) being referenced.
    – Double AA
    Commented Jan 2, 2019 at 3:10
  • @DoubleAA, It looks like one should vocalise it as it should be pronounced, eg. Scheëloh, rather than Scheiloh Commented Jan 2, 2019 at 3:38
  • No, R Hamburger claims that the custom is to use the two syllable form so that it presents less of a hefsek if announced between kaddish and shmone esrei. See his article in Shorshei MA 2
    – Double AA
    Commented Jan 2, 2019 at 8:20
  • @DoubleAA how does that help? Shaylah is not a correctly pronounced Hebrew word, but people use it in English all the time, I guess from Yiddish. Who decides if it's a word? YIVO? The National Spelling Bee committee?
    – Heshy
    Commented Jan 2, 2019 at 13:14
  • @Heshy the claim is fewer syllables is better. I don't need to defend the claim, I'm just clarifying what MMA's claim is.
    – Double AA
    Commented Jan 2, 2019 at 13:15

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