In the Southern Hemisphere (Brazil, Australia, South Africa, etc.) in October they are heading into the summer. Do they say Mashiv HaRuach at this time of the year or do they say it from Pesach to Succos?
asked Oct 5, 2010 at 18:56
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See also judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/11508– msh210 ♦Commented Nov 22, 2011 at 23:18
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1There is a collection of the various halachic opinions here: hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15787&pgnum=156– MenachemCommented Nov 28, 2011 at 1:16
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@msh210 Is that not a dupe because one is sheilah and one is hazkara? I bet both questions intended to ask about both but didn't think to distinguish and coincidentally chose different examples.– Double AA ♦Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 18:30
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@DoubleAA, yes, I think it's not a dupe, for the reason you mention. Maybe they meant to ask the same thing, I don't know, but they didn't do so, and in fact the answers could be different.– msh210 ♦Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 19:15
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3 Answers
All of the discussion on this seems to go back to Shaalos Uteshuvos Toras Chaim (by R' Chaim Shabsi, 17th century, in response to a halachic query - the first known one, by the way - from the Jewish community in Brazil). He says that during the times when they need rain, if it's not during the Northern Hemisphere winter, they should just request it (i.e., say ותן טל ומטר, and I guess also משיב הרוח) in the blessing שומע תפלה; otherwise they should omit it altogether. In short, then, there might indeed never be a time when they say it.
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Don't lump together the request for rain with the mentioning of rain in the second b'racha: there are differing rules. The general rule IINM is that one follows the northern hemisphere's seasons no matter where he lives -- for mentioning rain. Requesting is more complicated, depending on one's local climate.– msh210 ♦Commented Oct 6, 2010 at 14:24
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I would have thought so too, but it looks like Toras Chaim and everyone who quotes him (for example, Eshel Avraham to Orach Chaim 117) are talking about both הזכרה and שאלה. While it's true that the former is descriptive rather than petitionary, the fact remains that we don't want to say הזכרה either when rain is bad (that's why we start it only on Shemini Atzeres rather than earlier, during or before Sukkos).– AlexCommented Oct 6, 2010 at 19:53
Now: from Sukos to Pesach. I was in the southern hemisphere in the northern-hemisphere summer some years back, and as I recall they did not say mashiv haruach umorid hagashem (or hageshem for that matter); no further source, sorry.
"Mashiv haRuach" is not a seasonal request, so I would wonder about a printing error in those commentaries that put it in those terms.
"veSeein Tal uMatar" on the other hand is a seasonal request , and the timing used is specific to the region around Eretz Yisroel. So the question arises as to why do others start saying it at the same time (@ Dec 04). In fact, the ROSH among others , tried to change the starting time to be appropriate (sp?) to the region one is living. Obviously they lost the argument, what is not so obvious is why. It has been suggested that the Eretz Yisroel time was kept as a type of "Zecher l'Churban".
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On the contrary, the timing we use outside of Israel is based on that of Bavel. The Rosh's attempt was indeed to use the E.Y. time (7 Cheshvan) instead in the countries where this is appropriate. So it's not a "zecher lechurban" thing.– AlexCommented Dec 26, 2010 at 19:41
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As far as Mashiv HaRuach goes, you're arguing with R' Yehoshua (Ta'anis 2b) who learns that it IS a seasonal request and we don't mention it out of season because rain then is a sign of G-d's anger (chas veshalom).– follickCommented Dec 8, 2011 at 5:27
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@Alex I think he means the EY time of 7 Cheshvan is kept in Israel even though there are no travelers nowadays as a Zekher leChurban. Indeed there used to be a practice post Churban in Israel to start Sheala on Isru Chag.– Double AA ♦Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 16:36