The Gemara in Shabbos says that Bibi bar Abaye asks if one can violate a Rabbinic commandment (unsticking a loaf from an oven) to save oneself from being "chayav a chattas".

The Gemara says that there can be no instance when one will be chayav a chattas (since one would have to be a shogeg both when one stuck the bread into the oven and when it baked. If he's taking it off, he knows what's going on and isn't a shogeg).

Therefore, the gemara says the question was whether one can do it to avoid an Issur Skila.

Why not ask it the original way (Safek into the oven and Vadai when it baked) and there is no chiuv, but the same Issur is still there? Why do we care if one has to actually bring a sacrifice?

  • Especially there is a gemara before asking if the same thought-proccess would influence the law of doing an issur derabanan to prevent chilul shabbos de'oraisa. Commented May 5, 2013 at 4:50
  • Isnt that tosfos kashe
    – user2709
    Commented May 5, 2013 at 4:57
  • What I dont understand is, best to put it this way. If one put in the oven 'bmaizid' and then fell asleep or forgot about it. So in effect he is now like a shogeg would that save him from punishment. Say it baked without getting burnt like the fire went out in the middle. Our case is the opposite. He started off being a shogeg and after the act of putting in the oven he became a maizid. Why should the fact that he left it in turn him into a maizid.
    – user2709
    Commented May 5, 2013 at 11:38
  • 1
    What daf is this?
    – Double AA
    Commented Jun 22, 2013 at 21:56


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