The SA in YD Siman 97 Sif 1 (the makor is a braisa in Pesachim Daf 30) says that one should not knead together a dough with milk, lest someone come to eat it together with meat. If one did knead them together, then one may not eat the bread, even by itself.

The question was asked: Why wasn't a similar gezerah (prohibition) made in regards to a "davar charif" (something spicy; see beginning of SA YD Siman 96) that is cut with a "meaty knife", which would make that davar charif ossur to eat together with milk? Why wasn't a gezera made that one shouldn't cut the davar charif with a "meaty knife", lest they come to eat it with milk, and that after the fact we would say the davar charif would be ossur to eat by itself?

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    The gezerah was specifically bread which (IIRC) is a basic food that is part of a staple human diet, and is eaten together with many other dishes. There is no issue in making other pareve foods milching/fleishig.
    – Michoel
    Apr 4, 2013 at 10:43
  • @Michoel - Absolutely and we do find this in many places. From the Geomrahs themselves (the braisa about pas) and what we find in Chullin Daf 111 in regards to cutting a davar charif I felt the need to ask this. The gezerah technically could apply still. Vegetables I heard once was not such a common part of the diet of Tanoim and Amoroim. This person said we see more they ate bread and meat more (could be I have this backwards though?) For sure ate vegetables however the staple food was perhaps different then
    – Yehoshua
    Apr 4, 2013 at 10:47
  • @Yehoshua If you are not offended by the idea of opening up secular history books for information about the Tanaim, and to a certain extent the Amoraim, you will find that the Tanaim had a diet that consisted mostly of bread, humus, soft cheeses and fish. Meat was a rarity(unless you were a Kohen). I'm not as certain about the Amoraim. I believe they ate meat more often(2-3 times a week) but it still wasn't the normal food. Apr 4, 2013 at 12:06
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    @RabbiMichaelTzadok Not offended at all! Truth is I probably had this backwards since the person I heard this from is well versed in these things and probably got it from the same source.
    – Yehoshua
    Apr 4, 2013 at 12:10

1 Answer 1


First it would seem you are not remembering 97:1 correctly. There it says:

Do not knead dough with milk since (1) it may come to be eaten with meat. If milk is kneaded with dough, then the bread is assur 1) to eat even on its own. However, if only a small amount of such bread is made, for example one meal’s worth, or if the bread had a special shape1 that would remind you not to eat it with meat, it is mutar. Similarly, one should not bake bread in an oven that has been greased with fat. If bread was baked in a greased oven [it is assur] for the same reason as bread kneaded with milk. RAMA Therefore there is a custom to make bread with milk in it for Shavuos, also bread with shuman in it for kovod Shabbos since this is considered a small amount 2 and its shape is different than that of bread made during the week. Kol shecain phladan 3 or pashtaida is mutar. 2) One should not bake bread with phladan or pashtaida in the same oven since there is a concern that fat may leak onto the bread. If the fat does leak under the bread it has the din of being kneaded with fat. The custom is to put parve food in the opening of the oven [when milk or meat are also being cooked]. (3) Even if the parve food is in a pan the custom is to be strict l’chatchila.

You will notice from both the words of the Mechaber as well as the Rema that the worry is making large amounts of dairy bread without any sort of sign that they are dairy. Not just dairy bread. This is a technicality that every US Kashrut organization would relies upon to give heksherim to various dairy breads in the supermarket. So long as it carries and OU(D) or OK(D) or whatever(D) that in and of itself is considered enough of a siman. In Israel one can bake dairy bread so long as it is triangular(the reason for the mandated shapes of Bourekas by Rabbinut).

Now let us look at Y"D 96:1

A tznon or 1) silka5 that was cut with (1) a ben yomo 2) meat knife or [a knife that] 3) wasn’t cleaned is assur to eat with milk unless 4) a k'dai natila, the width of the thumb, is removed from where the it was cut (2) 5) or if it was tasted and did not taste of meat in which case it is mutar [to eat with milk] after it is washed. (3) V’yaish omrim 6) the same law applies even if the knife is an aino ben yomo and clean. If the k’dai natila was not removed, nor was it even tasted before it was cooked with milk, 7) then 60 is needed (4) 8) against the area (5) that was cut. (6) The same din applies if the knife of a non-Jew was used.

Here we see that for the davar charif to become "meaty" certain conditions have to be met. First the knife must be ben yomo. Second the surface must be left in tact with an actual meat taste. However, if it were to mixed with milk, even then you would only need 60x the surface area of the cut. Negating either one of those conditions would mean that the davar charif is not meaty. Unlike the bread which is impossible to make not dairy.

As for the bread the concern was that one would make a quantity of bread(more than enough for a single meal), and thus the leftover may come to be eaten with meat. For instance the minimum measure for taking challah would be enough quantity to make several large loaves, and thus in fact would be enough for several meals. Whereas with the davar charif, we are only worried about the surface of the cut, and then only if it has a discernable meaty taste after having been cut. In short it would seem that Chazal was not worried about it being prepared in quantity enough for it ever be an actual concern.

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    "So long as it carries and OU(D) or OK(D) or whatever(D) that in and of itself is considered enough of a siman" - No source ATM, but I am quite sure some say that a siman on the wrapping is not enough, as it needs to be part of the bread.
    – Michoel
    Apr 4, 2013 at 11:58
  • @Michoel I'm sure there is machloket on it, especially considering that it is so new, and I have no doubt that some argue the halakhic basis for it. However, when you consider the organizations that do it, there is a good weight of Rabbinic weight behind the idea. As usual CYLOR. Apr 4, 2013 at 12:02
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    I think the OU does not hechsher dairy bread at all for this reason. Jun 3, 2013 at 17:44

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