If one baked bread on yom tov in Eretz Yisroel (from dough kneaded prior to Yom Tov) and relized when the bread was still in the oven that he forgot to take off challah, must the bread then be considered muktzah? If indeed it is muktzah, would one have to leave it in the oven the entire time even until it burns or could one save it and take it out?
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1This seems to involve a few questions. Perhaps some of them can be restated as follows (if you have something else in mind, please clarify): (1.) Since the bread is not permissible in its current state, is it muktzah? (2.) If muktzah, can the bread be moved anyway (e.g. via kil'achar yad)? (3.) If so, can it be saved under the principle of protecting one's property on Yom Tov, or it is an act of hachanah to save the bread? Alternatively: (4.) In the absence of any mitigating mechanism like tiltul min hatzad, does the need to save the bread override the prohibition of muktzah?– FredSep 21, 2012 at 4:26
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Also, you may want to direct your attention to the sugyas of hidbik pas batanur (Shabbos, 4a; see also Ritva ad loc) and shachach pas batanur (Shabbos, 117b), which may have bearing on this topic. For example, was the baking retrospectively assur? If so, should one (a.) remove the dough before the crust hardens, thus preempting a possible issur, (b.) wait until it is fully cooked, or (c.) leave it to burn?– FredSep 21, 2012 at 4:50
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The case is where you kneaded (kned?) the dough before Yom Tov? If so, wasn't it muktza already as soon as Yom Tov started? What do you mean by 'become'?– Double AA ♦Sep 21, 2012 at 5:41
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@fred u summed it up very nicley,but #3 not sure about.– samSep 21, 2012 at 17:21
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@DoubleAA the person did not realize the whole time until it was in the oven.– samSep 21, 2012 at 17:22
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3 Answers
Based on what the Ramah writes in SA Siman 457:1 and SA Horav #16), there is a way to take Challa on Yom Tov: you could make a new dough (make the size of one Challah, because your going to have to eat that bread on that same day, per Mogen Avraham 506:11) bake it and AFTERWARD do צירוף כלי (put the Erev YT breads and the new bread in one utensil) and remove Challah from the NEW bread.
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Right, but for the rama is it muktza until then? Also, why do you need tzeiruf kli?– Double AA ♦Apr 21, 2013 at 23:49
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BTW when I saw this pop up on the front page this morning, I said: I better get myself together and post the stuff I've found or Meir Zirkind will probably get there first.– Double AA ♦Apr 22, 2013 at 0:01
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Also your last point (while fascinating!) is not relevant here. We only give challat chu"l to young kohanim, not challah from Israel.– Double AA ♦Apr 22, 2013 at 0:03
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It wouldn't be Muktza just like the dough that's kneaded on YT is not Muktza before removing Challah. The reason you need Tziruf Keli is because if one of the doughs is less than the Shiur it needs Tziruf to be Cayyav on Challah. When I found the Chasam Sofer (quoted in Daas Torah 506:2 I was too excited about it to remember to look into that detail, but anyway I was half right because the Tur YD 322 says according to the Rosh it can be given to a Katan in EY as well but the Rambam says it can't. But Lehalacha you're right so I'll take that out. Apr 22, 2013 at 1:11
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How could our case be with less than a shiur of dough? The new dough needs a shiur (see Mishna Berura 26), and the old one wouldn't be otherwise chayav if it didn't have a shiur?– Double AA ♦Apr 22, 2013 at 1:27
I wrote the bulk of this immediately after the question was posted several months ago, but I decided not to post it as it is sort of a long comment rather than a definitive answer. After I was reminded of this question by a recent post, I decided I might as well post my comments here. CYLOR, as usual.
If someone kneaded dough on Yom Tov of Pesach, and it became tamei, the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer in the Mishna (P'sachim 46a) is that the dough should be baked before challah is separated so that the challah doesn't turn into chametz. R' Eliezer holds that this is not afiya shelo l'tzorech prior to the separation of challah. Rabbeinu Baruch writes that the challah is muktza only after it is separated, since it is not fitting to be eaten in its state of tumah (Sefer HaT'ruma, Hil. Challah, § 84).
This seems to imply that, binidon didan, the fact that challah has not yet been separated does not intrinsically make the bread muktza. The question remains whether the bread is muktza because it may not be eaten on Yom Tov. Seemingly, the bread would be muktza because it would not be considered a davar shenigmar bidei adam since it cannot be made edible until after yom tov (so we can expect that asach da'tei minaihu) (Mishna B'rura, 310:19).
The bread seemingly may not be baked because, in this case, it would seem to be afiya shelo l'tzorech, as it may not be eaten on Yom Tov. Additionally, it seems that it may not be left to burn because of you cannot burn challah on Yom Tov (Shabbos 24b; Rashi, P'sachim 46a).
Assuming one could not apply the solution described in Meir Zirkind's answer, it would seem that the bread would need to be removed from the oven kil'achar yad. However, it may be logistically difficult to remove bread from a hot oven kil'achar yad; ironically, R' Moshe Feinstein is quoted as saying that it is questionable whether even moving an item backhanded qualifies as kil'achar yad (Igros Moshe OC vol. 5, 22:8).
It is further questionable whether one would be allowed to remove the bread in a normal manner, thus violating the d'rabbanan of muktza, in order to avoid cooking the bread, which would constitute a biblical prohibition. This seems to be related to the topic explored in the sugya of hidbik pas batanur (Shabbos 4a; see here and here for some discussion of relevant points).
Being that you are allowed to bake bread on Yom Tov, it would follow that you are allowed to do anything you can to eat the bread, including taking off challah, (because without taking off challah the bread is tevel). This is provable from Pesachim 36b/37a: "...Beis Hillel permit the baking of 'pas aveh' on yom tov... what is 'pas aveh'? 'pas merubeh'", i.e. a lot of bread, implying even an amount that would be chayav in challah. It would therefore follow that the bread is not muktzeh, being that is is indeed usable- all you need to do is take challah. (For more information on taking challah on Yom Tov, see Pesachim 46a/b.)
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You can only take Challah if the dough was kneaded on Yom Tov, hence my caveat in the question that it was kneaded before Yom Tov, see OC 506:3.– Double AA ♦Sep 21, 2012 at 18:22
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1We pasken that if you kneaded the dough before Yom Tov, yet you neglected to separate challah before Yom Tov, you may not separate it on Yom Tov. Further, in Eretz Yisrael, you may not eat from it until the challah is separated.– FredSep 21, 2012 at 18:22
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Thank you guys for clarifying this.case that is what I meant before yom tov.– samSep 21, 2012 at 18:30