It is Friday Night. The shul is due to daven Mincha at 7.30pm, but Plag Hamincha is 7.37pm. The Shul is two short of a minyan and the decision is taken to daven Mincha privately. It is now 7.45pm (and so past Plag Hamincha). After which, two more arrive and a minyan is then formed for Mincha. After davenning Mincha, they then decide to daven Maariv even though it is still not sunset let alone nightfall. Were they in error?

  • Are there any other restrictions on the case? Why don't they just daven maariv bezman? – Double AA Jun 24 '12 at 14:31
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    How is this different than the regular question of tarti desatri? – Double AA Jun 24 '12 at 15:01
  • This is a real case situation. It happened last Friday Night. They continued with Kabbalat Shabbat (without a minyan) and then (after a minyan was formed) they davened Maariv still before Nightfall. My view is that it is entirely tarti desatri. By davening Mincha after Plag Hamincha without a minyan, they should not have davened Maariv with the minyan, as the conditions of doing Maariv early had not been met. – Daniel Jun 24 '12 at 15:54
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    I don't understand why it matters that they davened mincha without a minyan. Right now they are left with the option of maariv with a minyan but tarti desatri, or leaving and having no minyan. So you're left with the regular question of the 7PM mincha/maariv. BTW welcome to the site! Please consider registering your account to be able to fully participate around the site. Also feel free to edit your question if you want to clarify something. – Double AA Jun 24 '12 at 16:12
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    The justification would be that right now you have the option of minyan via tarti desatri or no minyan. This is exactly the regular case where some say that since if you let people go home there won't be a minyan, it is better to daven with a minyan via tarti desatri than no minyan. – Double AA Jun 24 '12 at 16:33

Don't forget to CYLOR, but the Ktzos Hashulchan (Siman 77 in the Badei Hahulchan sif katan 17 and 18) writes that one should pray Maariv earlier on Shabbos night, but one is not allowed to pray before Tzeis if he davened Mincha after Plag. However, if one did, he is Yotzei Maariv. (He must still say Shema again after Tzeis)

  • I don't see how this addresses the question, in which they said mincha before p'lag. – msh210 Jul 3 '12 at 2:37
  • @msh210 judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/17262/… but I agree the question is convoluted and too real-life IMO. If you read through the comments you might see how I tried to figure out what's going on. FWIU he's asking if the heter for tarti desatri is predicated on mincha being davened right then as well with a minyan. Perhaps NARQ for now, but eventually I think there should be two questions: a general tarti destari Friday night, and whether early maariv minyanim are tied to an adjacent mincha. – Double AA Jul 3 '12 at 4:44
  • BTW I think his notion that it does need mincha with a minyan is based on too literal a read of the lines in poskim that say "they are already gathered for mincha and it's a torech to gather them again so we daven tarti desatri". – Double AA Jul 3 '12 at 4:45
  • @msh210 see judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/17262/… – Shmuel Brin Jul 3 '12 at 20:59

Aruch ha-Shulchan permits this.

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    He discusses the case where mincha was davened beyechidut and then they want to daven maariv betzibbur?? – Double AA Jun 24 '12 at 18:14
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    Also please cite the relevant simanim. – Double AA Jun 24 '12 at 18:16
  • I am not sure why having a minyan justifies davening Maariv before Shkiah if none of the conditions have been met. The only reason you are permitted to daven Maariv before Shkiah is if it is combined with Mincha with a minyan (which should ideally be davened before Plag Hamincha). You can't daven Maariv during Mincha Katenna or Mincha Gedolah and neither can you daven it in isolation - with or without a minyan - before Shkiah. Surely? – Daniel Jun 24 '12 at 19:58
  • @Daniel Can you please explain why you think maariv needs to be attached to mincha and not in 'isolation' as you say? I have never heard of such a requirement and can't think of any reason why it should be so. – Double AA Jun 24 '12 at 20:51
  • It needs to be attached in order to justify davening Maariv before Shkiah. This is surely at the heart of the debate between Rabbi Yehuda and the ta'anaim? – Daniel Jun 24 '12 at 21:11

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