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Positing that G.od is perfect (by the fact that he is the moral authority and is thought of as absolute perfection according to the general consensus); a change that he makes would mean that he was less or more perfect before the change came about. This follows the logic that something that is absolutely perfect must be unchangeable, because change is either for better or for worse. Any change would mean that G.od was more perfect or less perfect before or after the change. This is impossible, because G.od is absolutely perfect, there can therfore be no change in G.od or his "thoughts".

This change I'm referring to is the creation of the universe. The creation of the universe means that he underwent a change, because He was previously lacking a universe which he now has, and as I have stated, change in G.od is impossible. Logically, then, there could have been no creation, and the logical conclusion is that because G.od is absolutely perfect he must not have created the universe, or anything for that matter. Nothing therefore exists. We are all a delusion.

Though for a being (us humans) to think about his own existence precipitates that we be in existence. Therfore (may G.od forgive me) G.od should not exist by the fact that we question our existence. For, our existence is impossible if we believe in a perfect G.od (following my previous reasoning).

In summary, does our existence, which is a creation and therefore represents some manifestation of change, imply that Hashem is not perfect or simply does not exist, because perfection precludes change?

Is my logic off, or is this one of the paradoxes of life? Can someone help me sort out my thoughts?

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    I know how this sounds, but do you think you could try to make a single line "summary" of the entire question? E.g. "Does our existence, which is a creation and therefore represents some sort of change, imply that Hashem is not perfect, because perfection precludes change?"
    – Rabbi Kaii
    Aug 22, 2023 at 19:42
  • I am thinking that expecting an answer to a question like this in under 30,000 characters (the SA limit) might be unreasonable. We might simply be forced to quote a small portion of a very subtle idea, and encourage you to go and study some long philosophical/kabbalistic/chassidic texts. Maharal's Gevurot Hashem, Shalah, Avodat Hakodesh, Derech Mitzvotecha, Torah Or come to mine from me, I'm sure others will have their own recommendations. Armchair musing on these ideas without a sefer and a teacher to help is not recommended at all. There is a lot of Torah work on them, none really "beginner"
    – Rabbi Kaii
    Aug 22, 2023 at 19:47
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    Why would God be less perfect because he created the universe? Isn't the universe distinct from God? Is a craftsman less perfect because he creates a watch? I'm not completely following your line of thought here.
    – mbloch
    Aug 22, 2023 at 20:02
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    Rambam in his Moreh Nevuchim, part 2 talks about this. Aristotle hold that if He could (change), it would not increase His perfection: it might, on the contrary, from some point of view, diminish it. See what Rambam writes about this subject in great length.
    – Shmuel
    Aug 22, 2023 at 20:22
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    @mbloch Nothing exists outside of G-d. See Tanya, Section 2, Chapter 2. We only perceive ourselves as distinct entities through the one-way mirror of the tzimtzum. As to how anything can exist at all without implying change or composition in G-d, the Rambam says it's ultimately beyond human comprehension.
    – shmosel
    Aug 22, 2023 at 20:46

3 Answers 3

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Interesting question. Let's look at this piece by piece.

Positing that G.od is perfect; a change that he makes would mean that he was less or more perfect before the change came about.

This does not necessarily follow as when G-d, blessed be He, creates things, its not a change of Himself. He did not change His intrinsic and eternal essence. There is an ontological distinction/separation between the creation and the created once He creates things. Because all creation isn't directly Him. He does not direct actions at Himself/His essence.

This universe was created by some "change" in G.od

This is an assumption and does not necessarily logically follow. Like I explained above, it isn't like this.

Though for a being (us humans) to think about his own existence precipitates that we be in existence. Therfore G.od should not exist by the fact that we exist.

I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion. Its arguably true that to think, we would have to exist in some sense, but your argument hinges on point 2 which isn't correct.

To put it into points:

a) G-d is perfect [True]

b) G-d creating something necessitates change in G-d Himself [This is the point where the issue lies due to confusion between G-d's essence and G-d's effects since G-d is immaterial and transcedental]

c) For a being (us humans) to think about his own existence precipitates that we be in existence [Arguably true]

d) Therfore G.od should not exist by the fact that we exist [This does not logically follow]

The first Chabad Rebbe, Shneur Zalman of Liadi explained this distinction in Tanya, Chapter 36 where he states:

Rather, the explanation of the matter is that prior to the creation of the world, He alone existed, One and Unified and filled all of the place in which the world was created. The change that occurred after creation occurred only in the entities that were created, that is, in the ones who received His Divine Vitality and Light. G-d of course did not change at all because G-d is infinite and unchangeable. They (the creations) received the Divine Light and Vitality through many garments which cover and conceal His Light

All in all, I think the issue lies in your confusion between G-d's essence and G-d's effects. These are two different things. If you have any questions, I hope to answer them further.

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  • This answer would be greatly improved by adding sources.
    – Shmuel
    Aug 22, 2023 at 20:17
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    @Shmuel Yes I'm just trying to find where Maimonedes wrote about this
    – setszu
    Aug 22, 2023 at 20:18
  • I cited Tanya because I thought it was more explicit. I think Rambam speaks of this too, but its more fragmented.
    – setszu
    Aug 22, 2023 at 21:08
  • I've reworded my question.
    – Shababnik
    Aug 22, 2023 at 23:34
  • @setszu To your first point in your answer, he changed his mind. He thought he would be better off with a universe in existence.
    – Shababnik
    Aug 22, 2023 at 23:36
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The Sources don't say that God is not "perfect", but one can be forgiven for inferring that from them on occasion. First, the Midrash says that God created many worlds and destroyed them because he "didn't like them", implying something He made was not perfect. [Gen. R. 3:7] Second, the Talmud says:

It was taught in a baraita: For two-and-a-half years the house of Shammai and the house of Hillel argued. The first said: It would have been better if man had never been created. And the second said: It is better that man has been created. They took a vote and decided: It would have been better for man never to have been created; but now that he has been created, he should be careful about his behavior. [Eruvin 13b]

Shammai won. Obviously the majority thought the creation of Man was not a "perfect" act. But, they concluded, now that we are here, let's make the best of a bad situation.

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  • "Obviously the majority thought the creation of Man was not a "perfect" act." I don't see that. Man (and the universe he lives in) could have been a perfect creation aimed against his [default] betterment (his 'נוחות', if you will).
    – Tamir Evan
    Aug 25, 2023 at 5:22
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To answer your question we don't exist. We and everything else are God's dream. Only the first of God word is true and will answer all your questions if you follow the way of the Tzaddikim otherwise the path is clouded and confused I can make one suggestion: Read the seventy explanations of BRASIT the first word that's explained in Tikkunei Zohar. Also pray and ask for answers. Hatzlocho Nanach.

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  • Or if you don't prefer the TZ for whatever reason you can also hear it from R' Biggie -- it's all Good, it was all a Dream. m.youtube.com/watch?v=_JZom_gVfuw Aug 23, 2023 at 7:55
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    Lol R Biggie, wasn't expecting that
    – Rabbi Kaii
    Aug 24, 2023 at 7:35
  • @RabbiKaii More scripture and Judaism coming out of his mouth than some other places 🙂 Aug 28, 2023 at 9:25

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