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Throughout contemporary halachah, it seems that there are generally no more actual reshus harabim's anymore (except for certain places such as Brooklyn, NY). My questions are:

  1. There are way more people now than ever before, so one would think that there would be more, so how is there hardly any actual reshus harabim's anymore?
  2. How did they even determine if a city had 600,000 people passing through it back in the day?
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  • There are way more people now than ever before... There are also way more cities, and they're designed to disperse the flow of traffic more evenly. How did they even determine if a city had 600,000 people passing through it back in the day? Can't be too hard to ballpark the number of passersby in a narrow window of time and extrapolate.
    – shmosel
    Commented Jun 19, 2023 at 23:07

1 Answer 1

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Indeed it seems like in the days of the Talmud public domains were quite common such that the rabbis of the time instituted many, many rules to prevent accidental violation. But on the other hand everything we know about history suggests their populations and urban areas were much smaller than modern ones.

Without getting too detailed, there are a few different broad approaches one could take to resolve this contradiction.

  1. Modern cities have many more walls and fences than classical towns would have had. All the extra boundaries somehow formally divide the area up and define it as private despite its large population. (I'd call this a "Chazon Ish" position.)

  2. The paradigmatic public domain is not actually a busy urban area but rather the open lawless rural wild. The extra rabbinic fences are not there to cover accidentally carrying in the city but rather to cover living in the city and forgetting that carrying outside the city is a problem. (I'd call this a "Rambam" position.)

  3. Historians are heretics and the metropoles back then were actually bigger than current ones with fantastically busy thoroughfares. (I'll decline to assign the position to anyone.)

  4. There are actually lots of public domains nowadays and most city eruvin are unfortunately invalid (albeit perhaps only rabbinically so). You say "throughout contemporary halachah" but there is no shortage of recent great rabbis who did not carry in most modern eruvin, and the widespread lenient practice is easily attributable to the obvious difficulty in following this position. Note too, there isn't really any particularly old tradition for being lenient in modern size cities since they didn't exist only about a century ago. (Let's call this a "Brisker" position.)

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  • Rural areas immediately outside of a city would surely have been far from "lawless". They would have been sites of intensive agricultural production.
    – TRiG
    Commented Jun 20, 2023 at 11:20
  • @TRiG Sure, I said I'm not being precise. Arguably the real "public domain" is outside that zone where land wasn't even privately owned. Alternatively, carrying in the agriculture zone is consistent with carrying as a kind of productive labor (eg. bringing crops in from the field).
    – Double AA
    Commented Jun 20, 2023 at 14:00
  • @DoubleAA Can you kindly provide a source for this Rambam, and Chazon Ish? Also, I once posed this question to a Rabbi, and he responded that ancient cities had a single road that ran through them (I think something akin to a Roman Cardo), and modern cities lack this. Would you say that is a variant of the first approach? Commented Nov 29, 2023 at 14:44
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    @chessprogrammer Broadly speaking I'd put it in the first category (all of our roads turn or dead end eventually so there's a wall on the third side of a rectangle is roughy the chazon ish's idea). There is a suggestion by the aruch hashulchan that a biblical public domain is only when there is one major market street in the city and since our cities have multiple, none is THE street and hence no biblical public domain. It's a very big chiddush (and archaeology has found 2 "cardos" in Jerusalem) and I didn't mention it here, but that could be what your rabbi is referring to.
    – Double AA
    Commented Nov 29, 2023 at 16:41
  • @DoubleAA On (2) wouldn't the Rambam also include city streets in RHR?
    – AKA
    Commented Nov 29, 2023 at 21:29

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