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How is the relationship between people who had open experiences with God or with his manifestations in relation to those who had nothing? Will God treat them differently when it comes to their behavior here on Earth? Will those who have had no direct or close contact with the divine presence have any compensation for moral failings compared to those they have? The Rambam says that only those who kept the seven laws of Noah will have the right to the world to come out of the conviction that it was a divine ordinance through Moses who wrote these commandments, how does he expect this to happen? The faith? Isn't this a foreign concept to Judaism being closer to Christianity? Does Judaism not stand on solid foundations of events? I consider Christian-type faith something very abstract and even dangerous if it involves concepts like salvation, wouldn't that be playing with people's destiny? Are those isolated people without any contact or concepts of Judaism, Noahide laws but somehow culturally observed all the noetic laws, are they lost by only considering them basic moral laws? Does Judaism somehow support that Pauline concept that those ignorant of the truths of Scripture will not be condemned?

In short. What is necessary for humanity to reach the state of consciousness that these universal moral commandments are the result of a will of a certain God since there are several "gods" out there. And what will happen to the people who observed these commandments in their own cultural consciences spiritually speaking?

You can if you want to answer one or all of the questions with a question mark if you so wish, you are free to answer what you think is best to clarify.

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    I count 10 question marks not including the one in the title. Do you think you can boil it down to 1 or 2? After that, make a little section explaining why you are asking and it will be a lot clearer, thanks!
    – Rabbi Kaii
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 14:33
  • I accept any answer to this bunch of questions, I ask a lot of questions in a topic just because if I split it, it could end up falling into an already answered question and end up not accepting any more answers. Answer 1 or 2 which you consider best to answer.
    – Thales
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 14:39
  • I strongly recommend trying to boil your question down to a single question, which is stated clearly at the beginning of the post. Then make a gap, and write "here is what is behind this question:" and then write the rest.
    – Rabbi Kaii
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 14:42
  • I think I'll edit the question by adding the central doubt of these 10 questions at the end. I just need time to better reflect on what I'm going to question in the face of all this
    – Thales
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 14:46
  • @RabbiKaii I made an edit by formulating two core questions of the doubts I outlined at the beginning. It is better now?
    – Thales
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 15:21

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First the Rambam is in Hilchos Melachim 8:14 (or 8:11 according to a different edition?).

Kesef Mishna there says that the need to do so because Moses commanded it, is the Rambam's own logic.

To explain the logic (see בני ולחם יהודה for the necessity due to other Gemaras). I would simply say that someone who does something because it is logical is not accomplishing anything other then what he needs to do because it's better for humanity or himself etc...

Someone who does something because he was commanded by Hashem understands that these commandments form a connection and relationship which is what Olam Haba is. Sadly someone who does not form that connection simply doesn't have it.

It would be fascinating to know whether one who logically realizes Hashem exists, and realizes that he wants us to do these things, or because he has a tradition from Noah (and not Moses) would he have Olam Haba. I can imagine the answer is yes, and the Rambam writes about Moses for other reasons.

See Michtav Meliyahu (חלק א׳) about why rewards are given and why it is ultimately fair. For example, someone who does something for physical reasons, why should he receive a spiritual reward? He in fact might find the spiritual reward painful, whereas a physical reward in this world much more gratifying. This is because Olam Haba requires refinement of soul. He also writes there that someone who grew up with a warped sense of good/evil is judged on their level not an absolute standard (נקודת הבחירה).

Faith should be a separate question; however, in regard to this specifically, one should not serve Hashem out of reward, but rather for his sake. (Pirkei Avos 1:3) and so faith doesn't technically apply to your question I don't think.

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  • Is it not a disadvantage for certain people of biblical times to have experienced direct or almost direct communication with the divine presence than for those who never had it? Doesn't this impact on the idea of the Rambam that only those who observed the seven Noahide laws are part of the world to come, out of the conviction that it was God who formulated and destined the Gentiles? In other words, is there something for those who observed these commandments just by logical reasoning? Or does this Rambam idea have a catch or is it not quite like black and white?
    – Thales
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 15:26
  • @Thales The נקודת הבחירה point is the most relevant to the question. Hashem takes circumstance into account. How that works is a secret though, but we know that Hashem is good and the reward is perfect. The entire point of having free will is so that He can have us, not angels/robots. Therefore the less "advantage" someone has in serving Him, the more of themselves is going into the service. Does that make sense? This answer also has a relevant point that goes well with what msj121 wrote: judaism.stackexchange.com/a/131816/31534 i.e. physical being rewarded with physical etc.]
    – Rabbi Kaii
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 15:30
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    @Thales To exeperience communication and similarly (to less extent) someone who knows G-d commands something and DOESN'T listen it is much more serious. In fact the Jewish people at Har Sinai asked Moses to intercede instead of direct communcation.
    – msj121
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 15:31
  • @Thales In regard to the idea that a non-Jew's reward, nothing is black and white in regard to Hashem and how he Judges imo. It would be interesting to consider that Christianity/Islam believe in the Torah, but they made a new religion. Perhaps they get credit for the 7 laws (if they are followed), in regard to the new religion perhaps Hashem will show kindness to those who followed it (if they "deserve" kindness - ie: they are kind and good) and be spared punishment for that aspect? Just an idea.
    – msj121
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 15:35
  • The whole issue involves the concept of recognizing these laws as arising from the determination of a deity. Isn't this a little complicated to establish criteria for this to be achieved?
    – Thales
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 15:52

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