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Here are some questions I asked Rabbi Gotlieb and would like to know if anybody knows the answer (please cite sources if necessary?

My main question is in the event that the king over israel decides to use the army to implant and force the parents to teach their children the Sinai story either by the whole country (which has one important flaw which is that a revolt against this could start or they just wait until the king dies and for a new king but it would be better if you could answer with a better flaw) or by doing it city/ area by area over a long period of time by also indoctaintring the story into his children's head. This is possible because a king could be (and there have been many kings who have been) crazy and mad.

There is also the proof from the survival of the Jewish people and from the nevuah in the Torah. My question on that is that since we were scattered around different countries all over the world from the moment we were exiled (zoranstiran empire) it would be very hard to destroy us even though we were heavily persecuted.

And finally, the proof from the fact that we returned to Eretz Yisrael and the nevuah that it would happen in Parshas Nitzavim. Here I have less of a formulation of an argument but it could be that after a certain point it would be likely that we would return because we survived everything and suffered so much and the world would feel bad for us or a merciful king would let us return as when Cyrus the Great let us return. In addition to that I have some questions about Galus and the return ; Why did Cryus let us go back and why wouldn't it be a fair possibility that another king would let us return? What prevented us from returning throughout Galus? What prevented nations in general from returning to their homeland countries? Why would nations not be inclined to let us return after all our suffering?

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  • In regards to your second question, forget the scattering around the world, is there or has there ever been a country that had a sizable Jewish population that was able to entirely destroy that population? Even Spain in the inquisition couldn’t do it. Or Germany in WWII. We never had to use the scattered Jews to repopulate even if in theory it might be possible
    – Chatzkel
    Aug 3 at 1:44
  • @Chatzkel ever met any Romaniote Jews?
    – Double AA
    Aug 3 at 2:03
  • I personally haven’t but it seems that there are people who have. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romaniote_Jews
    – Chatzkel
    Aug 3 at 2:05
  • There is a functioning Romaniote shul on Broome Street in the Lower East Side. The president is a holocaust survivor. As are / were many of the other members.
    – Schmerel
    Aug 3 at 2:10
  • Out of curiosity, what was Rabbi Gotlieb's response?
    – Avrah
    Aug 3 at 11:16

2 Answers 2

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My main question is in the event that the king over israel decides to use the army to implant and force the parents to teach their children the Sinai story etc.

Speculative "what if" scenarios like this can be used to join the conspiracy theorists about everything but to answer this particular question look at how unsuccessful Stalin and his henchmen were at getting the people in the Soviet Union to adopt mass belief in thier version of history (this is about history not communism) to understand how untenable such a proposal would be.

Yes, I know that in county X they believe Y because they were told... end of the day the failure of the Soviet Union to create mass belief in their rewritten national history should give you an idea of how difficult it is to do such a thing by force.

since we were scattered around different countries all over the world it would be very hard to destroy us even though we were heavily persecuted.

Assuming that we only survived in countries where (1)we weren't persecuted and (2) in those countries there were no strong assimilist movements saying that they had proven once and for all that whatever is believed by the intelligentsia of that county is that absolute truth blah, blah, blah that would a good question. Being that the primary story of Jewish history and survival did not takes place in such countries the proof remains.

it would be likely that we would return because we survived everything and suffered so much and the world would feel bad for us.

Not sure why survival would make it likely for us to return. Do other dispersed groups ultimately return to where they started from? The world feels bad for us? I never noticed that one...

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  • But what about Muslim countries where we weren't persecuted as much?
    – Champ
    Aug 3 at 12:35
  • Also, I left one thing out which is that we always were very connected to Eretz Yisrael so we would want to return but most ther nations wouldn't care so they wouldn't return
    – Champ
    Aug 3 at 23:41
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In order for your first argument to work, the king would have to be able to enforce his law over multiple generations, which would be extremely unlikely. It would necessitate multiple generations of kings enforcing this rule.

In addition, we have a direct tradition covering the period of the Kings. So the king would have also have to have created a false and yet detailed history. There are examples of people creating false histories of themselves and their own achievements, but how many claimed to falsify a nation's entire history? And do so without taking any personal credit? The largest examples of mass brainwashing are the Communist countries, and they all built personality cults around their "Glorious Leaders," something this supposed king did not do.

To say someone was mad is not enough. Mad people who have lost touch with reality are not effective, and people who are just mad with power still have a method to their madness. Creating a false history and leaving oneself out of it does not fit the MO at all.

As for your second argument, the point isn't that we physically survived, but that we kept our identity. Many highly successful nations disappeared with no persecution, yet we were repeatedly targeted for genocide, and still survived and practice Judaism to this day.

The returning in the days of Cyrus had been prophesied by Isaiah (Ch. 45) long before the first Temple was destroyed.

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  • to respond to your first argument I have one question. Why can't the king just teach it to his children so they will believe it and want to enforce it?
    – Champ
    Aug 9 at 14:29
  • Second argument, same question U have for you as I asked Schmerel which is what about in Muslim countries where we weren't persecuted as much?
    – Champ
    Aug 9 at 14:30
  • 1. That still doesn't cover the population as a whole. It doesn't get you much yardage. And are these kids isolated from everyone else their whole lives? 2. That does not negate what happened at many other points in history.
    – N.T.
    Aug 9 at 16:59
  • 1. But this would make his kids want to enforce the story and they would makes everybody else believe it? 2. But that is a huge part of history and could account for our survival?
    – Champ
    Aug 10 at 20:21
  • 1. How would the kids be able to do more than the king himself? 2. We survived in Christian lands too. And it's not just about physical survival; it's also cultural. How much is left of the religions that were in Muslim lands before Muhammad other than Judaism?
    – N.T.
    Aug 10 at 23:52

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