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I observed a shul where the Shaliach Tzibbur left the Omud after saying Korbonos and only returned to say the concluding part of Pesukei Dezimro. What is the origin of this practice?

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    sefaria.org.il/…
    – Joel K
    Apr 24 at 16:08
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    There is not a shliach tzibbur before yishtabach in Judaism. In some places there's a guy who helps people stay in sync for funsies, but it's of no halachic significance, certainly he's not a messenger of the community for anything.
    – Double AA
    Apr 24 at 18:50
  • Possible duplicate judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83164/759
    – Double AA
    Apr 24 at 18:58
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    I don't know the origin, but I believe it is standard practice in shuls in Lakewood, NJ.
    – N.T.
    Apr 26 at 8:23
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    @DoubleAA next time I'm gabbai at the start of davening, maybe I'll walk up to someone, motion towards the bimah, and ask -- funsies?
    – Shalom
    Jun 28 at 13:23

1 Answer 1

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The Tur (סימן נג) writes

ועומד ש"צ ומתחיל ישתבח

Translation - the Shaliach Tzibbur gets up and says Yishtabach.

We can derive from this, that until Yishtabach no Shalich Tzibur was present, as he only "gets up" now.

The מור וקציעה explicitly writes that the minhag in פולין ומעהרין is that the ש"ץ only approaches the amud by yishtabach. This minhag is also mentioned in

  • כל בו
  • שו"ע הרב

On the other hand -

When the Shulchan Aruch when brings this halacha uses different words

אומר שליח ציבור ישתבח מעומד

Translation - and the shaliach tzibbur has to say Yishyabach while standing.

The תורת חיים is מדייק that the reason for the mechaber's choice of words is to point to the minhag of the ש"ץ already being at the amud from beginning of the תפילה.

An additional דיוק is the mechaber's psak (51:3) that if one hears the חזן say the beracha of Baruch Sheamar one has to answer Amen. Obviously, there must be a chazan at the amud for this to ocur.

The Beer Hetev (48:1) also talks about the importance of saying Korbanos together with the ש"ץ. Another דיוק that the minhag was to have a chazan present from the beginning of davening.

As to the contemporary minhagim-

You will often find yeshivishe minyanim without a chazan until Yishtabach/שוכן עד, especially if there is no chiyuv. Chassidim and non-yeshivish ashkenaz minyanim will generally have a chazan at the amud from either the beginning of davening, or at least from kaddish before hodu/mizmor shir.

For further reference see -מנהג ישראל תורה, אורח חיים, סימן נ"ג

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  • The question was about the shatz being there for korbanos and leaving, then coming back for yishtabach
    – Chatzkel
    Jun 28 at 14:19
  • @Chatzkel , i am assuming that the reason the shatz was there for korbanos was in order to say kaddish afterwards, not so much the for the sake of the korbanos
    – Yoreinu
    Jun 28 at 14:20
  • Exactly. That’s probably the answer to the question
    – Chatzkel
    Jun 28 at 14:21

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