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I know that circumcision was existent in various nations before and after Matan Torah, and it was and still is practiced with or without the Torah.

What's the difference between a Jewish circumcision and a secular one, and how did Tzipporah know how to perform it and what to cut, given that the Oral Torah wasn't given yet?

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    Abraham was circumcised so there was “Jewish” circumcising before matan Torah as well.
    – Chatzkel
    Sep 2, 2021 at 22:53
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    Presumably she had a tradition from Abraham who was commanded by God?
    – pcoz
    Sep 2, 2021 at 22:53
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    Kosher for what? If they convert?
    – Chatzkel
    Sep 2, 2021 at 23:46
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    Or do you mean if a non Jew can circumcise a Jew?
    – Chatzkel
    Sep 2, 2021 at 23:47
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    Why use Tzipporah when they could use Abraham, Yishmael etc? Furthermore, they could do whatever they want, who cares? Regardless, how does this have anything to do with needing/not needing the oral Torah in the slightest?
    – Chatzkel
    Sep 3, 2021 at 1:33

3 Answers 3

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Tziporrah knew how to do it simply by watching it being done by her older son. The Jews circumcised their sons since the time of Abraham.

Based on the comments I am going to go out on a limb and guess the question is how a woman (Tzipporah) could of done the bris for Moshe's son, if she is a woman and cannot be a mohel (according to some in the Gemara). Based on this, the question is if it is possible that her bris was different than nowadays, since it was before Matan Torah. If I am mistaken please advise.

The Gemara in Avoda Zara 27a asks this very question

The Gemara raises a difficulty against this explanation: And is there anyone who says that a woman may not perform circumcision? But isn’t it written: “Then Zipporah took [vattikkaḥ] a flint and cut off the foreskin of her son” (Exodus 4:25). This verse explicitly states that a circumcision was performed by a woman. The Gemara answers that one should read into the verse: And she caused to be taken [vattakkaḥ], i.e., she did not take a flint herself. But isn’t it written: And she cut off [vattikhrot]? Read into the verse: And she caused to be cut off [vattakhret], as she told another person to take a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin, and he did so. The Gemara provides an alternative explanation: And if you wish, say instead: She came and began the act, and Moses came and completed the circumcision

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    To clarify: the Gemara there brings two opinions as to whether a woman can perform a milah. The explanations in the passage you quoted are needed only according to the opinion of Rav, who disallows it; according to R. Yochanan, who allows milah to be done by a woman, there was no problem with Tzipporah doing so. (Both opinions are cited in Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 264:1.)
    – Meir
    Sep 3, 2021 at 2:10
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    @AlBerko It says no such thing there. Quite the opposite, in fact: it says that if the father doesn't do it then Beis Din is responsible to arrange it, and if that they don't do it then the son himself is responsible. It specifically states that the mother is specifically not responsible (איהי מנלן דלא מיחייבא). Kindly don't make up Gemaras.
    – Meir
    Sep 5, 2021 at 0:51
  • @alberko and just like the son himself doesn’t perform his bris neither does beis din (or the mother if that would’ve been mentioned) but rather the Gemara is referring to who is responsible to arrange the bris to be done
    – Chatzkel
    Sep 5, 2021 at 0:55
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Indeed it's possible that Tzipporah did only the first step of the milah, the cutting of the foreskin, and not the second, peeling back the membrane (periah). The Talmud (Yevamot 71b) states that the latter step was not part of the original commandment given to Abraham. The first record we have of it being obligatory, according to that opinion, is when Joshua performed a mass circumcision of the Jewish males upon their entry into the Land of Israel (Joshua 5:2; the Talmud understands the word שנית ("a second time") in that verse to mean a second step of the circumcision).

Now, some of the commentaries there (Tosafot, Ramban, et al) argue that periah might have been performed earlier too, just that it wasn't required. But not necessarily does that mean that Tzipporah would have done so.

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I'm not sure if non-Jewish sources would be allowed but it was quite a common practice in ancient Egypt [500 years before Abraham] so it would not be impossible for her to know based on general knowledge.

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From History_of_circumcision:

Sixth Dynasty (2345–2181 BCE) tomb artwork in Egypt has been thought to be the oldest documentary evidence of circumcision, the most ancient depiction being a bas-relief from the necropolis at Saqqara (c. 2400 BCE) with the inscriptions reading: "The ointment is to make it acceptable." and "Hold him so that he does not fall".[citation needed] In the oldest written account, by an Egyptian named Uha, in the 23rd century BCE, he describes a mass circumcision and boasts of his ability to stoically endure the pain: "When I was circumcised, together with one hundred and twenty men ... there was none thereof who hit out, there was none thereof who was hit, and there was none thereof who scratched and there was none thereof who was scratched."

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  • Hello Avi Teller welcome to Mi Yodeya. Non Jewish sources would be allowed if they properly addressed the question, but I'm not sure the relevance of this fact. Tsiporra wasn't Egyptian, but Midian. Maybe she wasn't familiar with Egyptian practices. Also, Egyptian practices don't necessarily address the needs of Jewish law, which may differ.
    – robev
    Sep 3, 2021 at 14:06
  • @robev Her father was the Egyptian high priest, wasn't he? This answer shows that the bare-metal method was practiced in the region long before Abraham, so everybody would be familiar with it. The only question remains the Halochos of the Milah, but nobody claims that she performed it Halachicly to start with.
    – Al Berko
    Sep 4, 2021 at 19:26
  • He wasn't the Egyptian high priest. "Nobody" is incorrect. See avoda Zara 27a with commentaries
    – robev
    Sep 5, 2021 at 12:25

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