A person lights fire to cook after tzeis hakochavim but he has not made havdoloh yet or said ato chonantonu or boruch hamavdil. Would lighting fire in this case count as a melocho d'oraisa or d'rabonnon?

  • 1
    Biblical vs. Rabbinical end of Shabbat
    – Schmerel
    Commented Nov 29, 2020 at 1:13
  • The question has been incorrectly closed as this is not a duplicate. The answer to the other question says that according to some opinions you must usher out the Shabbos either by davening Maariv or by saying havdoloh (and it's not something that happens automatically). However this does not mean that melochos's done in the meantime count as d'oraiso.
    – Nosson
    Commented Nov 29, 2020 at 14:32
  • beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x1259 the beis yosef says its derabanan.
    – robev
    Commented Nov 29, 2020 at 19:57
  • @robev Could you please translate the relevant part? If this is true then that proves that my question has been incorrectly closed. How do I get it opened?
    – Nosson
    Commented Nov 30, 2020 at 1:11

1 Answer 1



The original question did not make it clear that it was asking about mideoraiisah or miderabbanan. I asked my rav and he said it was miderabbanan


While one is forbidden to eat before havdallah (but after tzeis) one is allowed to drive after having davened maariv. In the shmone esrai we say ata chonantanu (which is the baruch hamavdil beain kodesh lchol) in order to allow driving home from shul before making havdallah at home. Thus, if a person (say at home) has not davened maariv yet, then he must say baruch hamavdil before performing a melacha. If he has realized that he has done a melacha, then he should immediately say baruch hamavdil and the error would be a shogeg.

As an example: Chanukah 5780 – Halachot and Frequently Asked Questions

Motzei Shabbat: When Shabbat ends (after 5:14 PM) (Please Note: There are different customs with regards to the order of the Chanukah candles and Havdalah. If your family custom is to light Chanukah candles first, you must say “Ata chonatanu” or “Baruch hamavdil bein kodesh lechol” before striking the match.)

  • 3
    I think Nosson's question applies if a person didn't make any havdalah at all, even verbally. There is an obligation to add m'chol l'kodesh, that doesn't mean that it would be a melacha d'oraysa. My guess that he is only violating the asei of tosefos Shabbos, but I didn't have a good enough proof to post an answer.
    – MichoelR
    Commented Nov 29, 2020 at 2:21
  • @MichoelR Exactly! I am editing the question to make it clear.
    – Nosson
    Commented Nov 29, 2020 at 3:09
  • I added the comment that it is a shogeg and one should say baruch hamavdil at once if one has not said it before doing the melacha. @Nosson Commented Nov 29, 2020 at 4:03
  • 2
    This doesn't answer the question
    – robev
    Commented Nov 29, 2020 at 5:12
  • @robev Actually the question was about lighting a fire before havdala. The answer used lighting Chanukah candles as an example of lighting and stated that one must say baruch hamavdil beforehand. As a result, lighting without having said baruch hamavdil is a shogeig. Commented Dec 3, 2020 at 23:10

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .