What argument happened first - Tanuro Shel Akhnai (B"M 59b) or Maariv Chovah or Reshut (Brochos 27b)

In the former, R"Y stood against R"E (backed by R"G) and in the later the same story happened to him against R"G. I'd like to know how to understand both, based on which happened first.

  • 2
    I'm almost certain I've seen someone (I think Maharatz Chayes or R. Reuven Margoliot) try to prove that Achnai came first, because if R. Eliezer had not yet been excommunicated at the time of the Maariv dispute, he surely would have been offered to be the nasi when they deposed Rabban Gamliel. Can't find the source now, though. – Alex Sep 24 '19 at 23:35

Well, it's almost written explicitly that Maariv Chovah or Reshut is latter, read forward, you will see that it's the "last straw" that cause our sages to overthrow Raban Gamliel.

Note: R' Eliezer eventually causes the death of Raban Gamliel, so most chances he was still excommunicated when R' Elazar Ben Azaria was nominated, and even after Raban Gamliel was brought back!

  • I thought about both 1. In Tanuro R"G part was indirect, it is not mentioned in Maariv story, how do you count it as a straw? 2. How do you connect the "note"? If it was later, R"E was boycotted, otherwise he wasn't. – Al Berko Sep 25 '19 at 14:44
  • @AlBerko 1)R"G part was direct, fact is, he died because of it, not R' Yehoshua 2) The Maariv story was the straw, not Tanuro 3) Not mentioning Tanuro at Maariv story is a good question, I thought about it myself, look down. 4) I didn't understand what you meant in 2, can you elaborate? – Alaychem Remember Monica Sep 25 '19 at 14:58
  • @AlBerko Maybe because R' Yehoshua was at Raban Gamlieal side at Tanuro, it does not mentioned at Maariv story – Alaychem Remember Monica Sep 25 '19 at 15:01

In the Haggadah, we have the story of Bnei Brak, and R' Eliezer appears there. Therefore, he must not have been in Cherem yet.

That same story also includes R' Elazar ben Azaria saying "Harei ani keben shiviim shana", referring to something that happened during the "Maariv" dispute. This implies that Bnei Brak happened after "Maariv".

As such, I submit that the correct order is:

  1. Maariv
  2. Bnai Brak
  3. Achnai
  • 2
    1) the deed of Bnai Brak can come after Tanuro of Achnai, after R Eliezer Cherem revoked. 2) R' Elazar Ben Azaria saying is not a direct followup of the deed in Beni brak, see Mishna Berachot 1:5, The Hagada Editor put those together. So, nice try, but no. – Alaychem Remember Monica Sep 25 '19 at 18:25

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