In Keilim 20:6, we see a disagreement between Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai (and Rabbi Akiva) as to when a floor mat (that is susceptible to midras impurity) loses its susceptibility to midras while being turned into a door curtain.

סָדִין שֶׁהוּא טְמֵא מִדְרָס וַעֲשָׂאוֹ וִילוֹן, טָהוֹר מִן הַמִּדְרָס, אֲבָל טָמֵא טְמֵא מֵת. מֵאֵימָתַי הִיא טָהֳרָתוֹ. בֵּית שַׁמַּאי אוֹמְרִים, מִשֶּׁיִּתָּבֵר. בֵּית הִלֵּל אוֹמְרִים, מִשֶּׁיִּקָּשֵׁר. רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא אוֹמֵר, מִשֶּׁיִּקָּבֵעַ:

If a sheet that was susceptible to midras uncleanness made into a curtain, it becomes clean from midras uncleanness but it is still susceptible to corpse uncleanness. When does it become insusceptible to [midras] uncleanness? Bet Shammai says: when the loops have been tied to it. . Bet Hillel says: when it has been attached. Rabbi Akiva says: when it has been fixed. [from Sefaria]

Beit Hillel's opinion is that the mat is still susceptible to midras at a time when Beit Shammai's opinion holds is insusceptible (namely, when loops are tied to it, but it's not yet hung up). Why isn't this listed in Masechet Eduyot amongst the other places where Beit Hillel is more stringent than Beit Hillel (see Eduyot chapters 4 and 5)?

I know that there are other understandings of this mishnah, but I'm asking according to the understanding (presented as the first option in Kehati's commentary) that Beit Shammai requires just attaching loops (and not a major alteration like ripping and resewing).

  • 1
    Do you have an online link to this Kehati? Bartenura quotes a Tosefta which supports your alternative reading, which seems to be a pretty strong source that your question is based on a false premise.
    – DonielF
    Jul 14, 2019 at 22:52
  • @DonielF I don't, but you can download the Kehati app and see for free for yourself. The straight read of the mishnah is according to the interpretation I'm interested in, although I understand the desire to reread it in light of the tosefta.
    – magicker72
    Jul 15, 2019 at 0:11

2 Answers 2


In many cases, the Gemarah and Rishonim ask this kind of question and they answer that there is a different instance that would cause the kulah to become a chumra and vice versa, which is why it wouldn't be included in the Mishnayos Idiyus.

In this case it's possible to say the same idea. In a case of a cloth that was not considered a keli until it is a finished curtain, Bais Shammai would say its a keli with just the loops and could become Tomeh, while Bais Hillel would say its still not finished and would not become Tomeh. Therefore it wasn't included in Idiyus.


Yachin Explains that Beis Shamai is going in his own opinion that one need a big change inorder for a Kli to lose its susceptibility to Tumah.

נ"ל דב"ש לטעמייהו [לעיל פי"ד מ"ב] דס"ל דאין מתבטל קב"ט מכלי רק בשיעשה בהכלי מעשה רבה

This would be a Stringency that even if one tied the sheet to the boat it would still be Tamei Midras According to Beis Shammai

Beis Hillel would agree to Beis Shammai that a big change alone would render the sheet no longer tamei madras, and are more lenient to say that the mere attatchment can be also enough to take off the tumas Midras as is clear in Tosefta:

בתוספ' [שם] מאימתי טהרתו ב"ש אומרים משיחבל וב"ה אומרים משיחבר או משיחבל

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    This is according to the opinion I'm explicitly not asking about.
    – magicker72
    Jul 15, 2019 at 20:32
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    @magicker72 which opinion does not state this? No one but yourself argues with a Tosefta. I am correcting your misunderstanding for which you have brought no evidence and all opinions point against you
    – user15464
    Jul 15, 2019 at 20:36
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    @magicker72 kehati you quote is not arguing with Tosefta he is just presenting technical ways of making a big change to the mat into a sail, either by sewing on loops, or by ripping it and resewing it
    – user15464
    Jul 15, 2019 at 20:42
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    @magicker72 yes i disagree it like curtains nowadays you can stick the wood through a hole in the curtain in a way that it still won't fall ofor you can do a much more professional job by attatching loops which hang from the sail and fit neatly to size.
    – user15464
    Jul 15, 2019 at 20:56
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    @magicker72 a hole in a curtain is not a major change (see ty in answer by user15646) as anyone can make a hole in a second. but sewing on loops is a craftsman job. The other girsa is ripping the cloth down so it's lost its function as big cloth and is only fit to be smaller cloths.
    – yosefkorn
    Jul 16, 2019 at 19:58

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