The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch writes in Siman 19 Halacha 9, that if one began his Shemoneh Esrei on the first night of Pesach and he accidentally began saying a weekday amidah and he came to the Bracha of barech aleinu, that he must complete it and he is to say “vsen Bracha” because the congregation is not saying “tal umatar” - if however December 4/5 fell on a Friday night and once again he said a weekday Shemoneh Esrei, KSA again says “vsen Bracha” because the congregation is not saying “tal umatar” as of yet. Aren’t these 2 halachos in contradiction with each other, as if with Pesach he holds that the person changes early his recitation to "vsen Bracha," even though the congregation hasn’t changed yet, why not the same on Dec 4-5 that falls on a Friday night - why not change to vsen tal in a similar fashion?

  • All the more so since on December 4 it switches at Maariv, while on Pesach it switches only the next day at Mussaf Chazaras HaShatz.
    – DonielF
    Apr 23, 2019 at 15:09
  • 1
    I think the logic is that veten bracha is the default and veten tal umatar is an addition.
    – Joel K
    Apr 23, 2019 at 15:16
  • @Doniel On Pesach it also changes at maariv of motzei chag
    – Joel K
    Apr 23, 2019 at 15:18
  • @JoelK I mean morid hageshem changes at those points.
    – DonielF
    Apr 23, 2019 at 15:21
  • @DonielF Gotcha
    – Joel K
    Apr 23, 2019 at 15:22

2 Answers 2


My understanding of the Kitzur's ruling is that the default (or 'null' - hat-tip @Double AA) state is to recite v'ten bracha. V'ten tal umatar is a mandated addition to the amidah during a certain season. (See this question and its answer for support for this assertion.)

The season starts the first weekday arvit on or after December 4th/5th (in the Diaspora) and extends until minchah of erev pesach.

Thus, if December 4th/5th falls on shabbat, the season does not begin until after shabbat, and one would not add v'ten tal umatar on that shabbat.

Conversely, at arvit of the first night of pesach, the season is already over, so, again, one would not recite v'ten tal umatar.

I think that the Kitzur's references to the recitation of the tzibbur is his way of ascertaining whether or not one is currently in the v'ten tal umatar season.


The words of the KSA are:

טעה במעריב ליל ראשון של פסח והתפלל תפלת שמונה עשרה של חול, ונזכר לאחר שהתחיל ''ברך עלינו'', שהדין הוא שצריך לסיים כל אותה ברכה (כמו שנתבאר לעיל סימן ע''ו), אינו אומר ''טל ומטר'', כיון שגם הציבור אינם אומרים.‏

Extended paraphrase, following the explanation of the Chochmat Shelomo. If he made a mistake at the first night of Pesach and pray the prayer of Chol.

And he realizes his mistake but is already reciting the Birkat Hashanim, he must go to the end of the Beracha (as explained in Siman 76, that the berachot of Yom Chol are not off topic on Shabbat, but Chachamim wanted to lighten the text in honor of Shabbat).

So when he is in the middle of the blessing, he must be careful not to say "Veten Tal Umatar", because the congregation already ceased to say it for this year.

ואם חלה השאלה (הוא יום התחלת לשאול טל ומטר) ביום שבת, וטעה והתפלל של חול, והתחיל "ברך עלינו" גם כן, אינו אומר "טל ומטר", כיוון שהציבור עדיין לא התחילו. והיחיד נגרר תמיד אחר הציבור.‏

If the same problem occurs on Shabbat at the date of switching to say "Veten Tal Umatar" if it had been possible,

he have not say Tal Umatar because the congregation did still not start to say it.

The logical trick is that stop mentioning this word comes automatically, but start saying these words is a congregational act.

  • "The stoping of veten tal umatar automatically happened on Yom Tov" Why? And how do you know that? I wouldn't expect that to be true.
    – Double AA
    Apr 23, 2019 at 22:17
  • I disagree. Both requests are announced.
    – Double AA
    Apr 23, 2019 at 22:22
  • No it's announced in Shul on Shmini Atzeret in Tefillah. Who said an announcement must be immediately adjacent to the effect? And also who said beating the Bima is a Halakhically insignificant announcement? Many places just announce Mashiv Haruach before Musaf and expect that to work even though that's not part of tefillah
    – Double AA
    Apr 23, 2019 at 22:30
  • @kouty I don't understand your answer. Why if a weekday Amidah was said on Leyl YT of Pesach we say that the season changed, even though the congregation hasnt change, and now it "vsen bracha" time but on December 4/5th - it hasn't changed yet BECAUSE the congregation hasn't changed and is still "vsen bracha" time - shouldnt they be the same? Apr 24, 2019 at 1:52
  • Because the veten beracha officially changed from the evening. If it's Shabbat, this needs to be said but the official Amida skipped it. Our man entered himself in the chyuv. As it's a standard week's day. So he needs to add it, to say veten Tal umatar correctly. If it's yom Tov of Pesach, veten tal umatar has stopped officially. But there isn't still nafka mina. He entered himself in chyuv to say birkat Hashanim. To miss veten beracha is not a missing because the hazkara stopped. If he does say it, no problem, there are poskim against the halachot Ketanot. .
    – kouty
    Apr 24, 2019 at 3:13

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