Timeline for Which tzitzit do I kiss?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
13 events
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| Feb 21, 2017 at 22:45 | comment | added | Double AA♦ | @Danno There indeed are ashkenazi poskim who say that you only say lihitateif if you actually wrap it around your head, and that's why there is this alternative blessing for when you don't. This opinion isn't help outside of ashkenaz afaik and even within it it's disputed (some reject the other blessing entirely; some say it is for garments that are less than a shiur so it's not too levatala since god did command us about tzitzit). | |
| Feb 21, 2017 at 22:42 | comment | added | rosends | @DoubleAA for talit katan it seemed that there IS a different way of "wrapping" -- וְטוֹב לְהַנִּיחַ אוֹתוֹ עַל רֹאשׁוֹ רָחְבּוֹ לְקוֹמָתוֹ, וּלְהִתְעַטֵּף בּוֹ, וְיַעֲמֹד כָּךְ מְעֻטָּף לְפָחוֹת כְּדֵי הִלּוּךְ ד' אַמּוֹת, וְאַחַר כָּךְ יִמְשְׁכֶנּוּ מֵעַל רֹאשׁוֹ, וְיִלְבְּשֶׁנּוּ | |
| Feb 21, 2017 at 13:52 | comment | added | Double AA♦ | @danno you are right and the OP is wrong. Many Poskim, primarily but not exclusively non ashkenazi ones, think lihitateif is always the correct blessing irrelevant of size or method of wrapping. the op is also confusing "fulfilling more views" with "more complete fulfillment". | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 21:18 | comment | added | Yaacov Deane | @Danno To say l'hitatef, the tallit katan needs to be large enough. Many are not. And the procedure for wrapping is also different. If someone is paying attention to all those details, then what you are saying from Shulchan Aruch is accurate. | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 21:11 | comment | added | rosends | @YaacovDeane the Shulchan Aruch says "עַל טַלִּית קָטָן יָכוֹל לְבָרֵךְ לְהִתְעַטֵּף, אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁאֵינוֹ מִתְעַטֵּף אֶלָּא לוֹבְשׁוֹ". The Ramo is the one who says " וְיֵשׁ אוֹמְרִים שֶׁמְּבָרְכִין עָלָיו עַל מִצְוַת צִיצִית וְכֵן נוֹהֲגִין, וְאֵין לְשַׁנּוֹת " So those who follow the S"A are doing something wrong? | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 20:39 | comment | added | Yaacov Deane | @Danno I understand. And in reality, for many, they wear two garments with tzitzit every day. The question about what the significance of multiple tallitot is, relates back to my comment about 'makifim'. In general, tallit and tefillin pertain to two different concepts in seder hishtalshelut. Tallit pertains to the concept of 'Makif' AKA 'Sovev'. That is the idea of being enwrapped. Tefillin pertains to the concept of 'Memaleh', implying 'filling' like dressing within the world. There are different levels of 'Makif', inner and outer. The outer, as discussed, is higher. | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 20:27 | comment | added | Yaacov Deane | The blessing for the tallit gadol is "l'hitatef b'tzitzit". You don't say that over a talit katan. The idea of 'Atifah gamurah' is mentioned in many places as the more complete idea of wrapping in the tzitzit, like in Ohr Zaruah and in the Beit Yosef I mentioned. The Drisha cited mentions in connection with 'Atifah gamurah' that you fulfill with any, but the Atifah gamurah satisfies all views, meaning more complete. This is the same way it is explained in Shulchan Aruch HaRav. Regarding your question about if you take all four front tzitzit, you are not following the minhag. | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 20:17 | comment | added | rosends | @YaacovDeane I know that the citations are unrelated in content but the first one points to the potential case of wearing multiple fringed garments at the same time. Otherwise, the question is a non-starter. | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 19:51 | comment | added | Double AA♦ | I'm really confused about your last edit. What is it a citation for? You didn't address either of the concerns I mentioned ("what does a 'more complete' fulfillment even mean and how do you know it applies here?") and you also didn't cite anything related to the actual answer of the question, namely, which tzitzit to kiss. All I see is a statement about what Atifa is, though the statement is essentially completely opaque as it defines one technical term in terms of another. What does this show about which tzitzit to take? Why not take all of them, for instance? | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 19:41 | history | edited | Yaacov Deane | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Feb 20, 2017 at 19:33 | comment | added | Yaacov Deane | @DoubleAA Bli neder, when I get a moment. The first part is easy. The second idea will require a little more digging. | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 19:30 | comment | added | Double AA♦ | Can you edit to include any sources for your first few paragraphs (the ones that actually address the question)? For instance, what does a "more complete" fulfillment even mean and how do you know it applies here? Right now it's just your word, and none of us know you to trust that. | |
| Feb 20, 2017 at 19:26 | history | answered | Yaacov Deane | CC BY-SA 3.0 |