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This is an important question, there are several examples of Rabbis that "Teshuva killed them". We see the case cited (BTW, in the Translation it seems that of the statement "עד שמת באותה מיתה", is missing "until he died from this death"). The case of the nevew of Rabbi Yosse Ben Yoezer Ish Tsereda Bereshit Rabba 65, 22, the case or Rabbi Eliezer Ben Dordea Masechet Avoda Zara 17b and the case of the Coves (fuller) Masechet Ketubot 103b

  1. See this postthis post in the paragraph "cases of suicide directed by Teshuva";
  2. See this postthis post in the paragraph "a surprising Gemara in Ketubot" with the note number 4;

For a righteous men, errors may be painfull to the point that they cannot go on living because of pain. Nobody has suggested that they have to suicide, or that suicide is a good option. Suicide in this case is only a testimony of pain generated by remotness from truth. This pain demonstrated that Rav Chyia bar Ashi loved truth. Suicide was due to pain . I mean that because of his love of truth, he became felt a moral pain and committed suicide by "Oness" . I added this explanation because of an user feel that at first glance something is self contradictory. the explanation is now clear I hope.

There are cases of suicide because of shame, even if the "suicided" has not commited any error; Berachot 23a:

For a certain student once left his tefillin in a hole adjoining the public way, and a harlot passed by and took them, and she came to the Beth ha-Midrash and said: See what So-and-so gave me for my hire, and when the student heard it, he went to the top of a roof and threw himself down and killed himself.

This was shame only, the student was clean, nothing to do with a problem of Teshuva.

But it seems that the Gemara in Kiddushin shows that Rav Chyia bar Ashi did repent and felt ashamed. The shame was not necessarily, from a logical point of view, linked with teshuva. But he was known as a big Tsadik. Thus, according to the rule of "Kaf zechut" we conclude that he died because shame and pain generated by Teshuva.

The source of dying because of Teshuva is in Gemara Avoda Zara 17b, concerning Eliezer Ben Dordea. Despite that he did not suicide, we see that the pain of the regret generated his dead. Pain can also lead to suicide, a suicide by "Ones" .

suicide if that is the only way to keep from sinning?

--> no

that one opinion allows for suicide

--> wrong

This is an important question, there are several examples of Rabbis that "Teshuva killed them". We see the case cited (BTW, in the Translation it seems that of the statement "עד שמת באותה מיתה", is missing "until he died from this death"). The case of the nevew of Rabbi Yosse Ben Yoezer Ish Tsereda Bereshit Rabba 65, 22, the case or Rabbi Eliezer Ben Dordea Masechet Avoda Zara 17b and the case of the Coves (fuller) Masechet Ketubot 103b

  1. See this post in the paragraph "cases of suicide directed by Teshuva";
  2. See this post in the paragraph "a surprising Gemara in Ketubot" with the note number 4;

For a righteous men, errors may be painfull to the point that they cannot go on living because of pain. Nobody has suggested that they have to suicide, or that suicide is a good option. Suicide in this case is only a testimony of pain generated by remotness from truth. This pain demonstrated that Rav Chyia bar Ashi loved truth. Suicide was due to pain . I mean that because of his love of truth, he became felt a moral pain and committed suicide by "Oness" . I added this explanation because of an user feel that at first glance something is self contradictory. the explanation is now clear I hope.

There are cases of suicide because of shame, even if the "suicided" has not commited any error; Berachot 23a:

For a certain student once left his tefillin in a hole adjoining the public way, and a harlot passed by and took them, and she came to the Beth ha-Midrash and said: See what So-and-so gave me for my hire, and when the student heard it, he went to the top of a roof and threw himself down and killed himself.

This was shame only, the student was clean, nothing to do with a problem of Teshuva.

But it seems that the Gemara in Kiddushin shows that Rav Chyia bar Ashi did repent and felt ashamed. The shame was not necessarily, from a logical point of view, linked with teshuva. But he was known as a big Tsadik. Thus, according to the rule of "Kaf zechut" we conclude that he died because shame and pain generated by Teshuva.

The source of dying because of Teshuva is in Gemara Avoda Zara 17b, concerning Eliezer Ben Dordea. Despite that he did not suicide, we see that the pain of the regret generated his dead. Pain can also lead to suicide, a suicide by "Ones" .

suicide if that is the only way to keep from sinning?

--> no

that one opinion allows for suicide

--> wrong

This is an important question, there are several examples of Rabbis that "Teshuva killed them". We see the case cited (BTW, in the Translation it seems that of the statement "עד שמת באותה מיתה", is missing "until he died from this death"). The case of the nevew of Rabbi Yosse Ben Yoezer Ish Tsereda Bereshit Rabba 65, 22, the case or Rabbi Eliezer Ben Dordea Masechet Avoda Zara 17b and the case of the Coves (fuller) Masechet Ketubot 103b

  1. See this post in the paragraph "cases of suicide directed by Teshuva";
  2. See this post in the paragraph "a surprising Gemara in Ketubot" with the note number 4;

For a righteous men, errors may be painfull to the point that they cannot go on living because of pain. Nobody has suggested that they have to suicide, or that suicide is a good option. Suicide in this case is only a testimony of pain generated by remotness from truth. This pain demonstrated that Rav Chyia bar Ashi loved truth. Suicide was due to pain . I mean that because of his love of truth, he became felt a moral pain and committed suicide by "Oness" . I added this explanation because of an user feel that at first glance something is self contradictory. the explanation is now clear I hope.

There are cases of suicide because of shame, even if the "suicided" has not commited any error; Berachot 23a:

For a certain student once left his tefillin in a hole adjoining the public way, and a harlot passed by and took them, and she came to the Beth ha-Midrash and said: See what So-and-so gave me for my hire, and when the student heard it, he went to the top of a roof and threw himself down and killed himself.

This was shame only, the student was clean, nothing to do with a problem of Teshuva.

But it seems that the Gemara in Kiddushin shows that Rav Chyia bar Ashi did repent and felt ashamed. The shame was not necessarily, from a logical point of view, linked with teshuva. But he was known as a big Tsadik. Thus, according to the rule of "Kaf zechut" we conclude that he died because shame and pain generated by Teshuva.

The source of dying because of Teshuva is in Gemara Avoda Zara 17b, concerning Eliezer Ben Dordea. Despite that he did not suicide, we see that the pain of the regret generated his dead. Pain can also lead to suicide, a suicide by "Ones" .

suicide if that is the only way to keep from sinning?

--> no

that one opinion allows for suicide

--> wrong

17 edited body
source | link

This is an important question, there are several examples of Rabbis that "Teshuva killed them". We see the case cited (BTW, in the Translation it seems that of the statement "עד שמת באותה מיתה", is missing "until he died from this death"). The case of the nevew of Rabbi Yosse Ben Yoezer Ish Tsereda Bereshit Rabba 65, 22, the case or Rabbi Eliezer Ben Dordea Masechet Avoda Zara 17b and the case of the Coves (fuller) Masechet Ketubot 103b

  1. See this post in the paragraph "cases of suicide directed by Teshuva";
  2. See this post in the paragraph "a surprising Gemara in Ketubot" with the note number 4;

The issue is that in some situations forFor a righteous manmen, some errors are very painfull and theymay be painfull to the point that they cannot go on living because of pain. Nobody has suggested that they would commit suicidehave to suicide, or that suicide is a good thingoption. Suicide in this case is aonly a testimony of pain because remotnessgenerated by remotness from truth. This pain demonstrated that heRav Chyia bar Ashi loved truth. But suicideSuicide was a "side effect"due to pain . I mean that because of his love of truth, he became felt a moral pain and committed suicide by "Oness" . I added this explanation because of an user feel that at first glance something is self contradictory. the explanation is now clear I hope.

There are cases of suicide because of shame, even if the "suicided" has not commited any error; Berachot 23a:

For a certain student once left his tefillin in a hole adjoining the public way, and a harlot passed by and took them, and she came to the Beth ha-Midrash and said: See what So-and-so gave me for my hire, and when the student heard it, he went to the top of a roof and threw himself down and killed himself.

This was shame only, the student was clean, nothing to do with a problem of Teshuva.

But it seems that the Gemara in Kiddushin shows that Rav Chyia bar Ashi did repent and felt ashamed. The shame was not necessarily, from a logical point of view, linked with teshuva. But he was known as a big Tsadik. Thus, according to the rule of "Kaf zechut" we conclude that he died because shame and pain generated by Teshuva.

The source of dying because of Teshuva is in Gemara Avoda Zara 17b, concerning Eliezer Ben Dordea. Despite that he did not suicide, we see that the pain of the regret generated his dead. Pain can also lead to suicide, a suicide by "Ones" .

suicide if that is the only way to keep from sinning?

--> no

that one opinion allows for suicide

--> wrong

This is an important question, there are several examples of Rabbis that "Teshuva killed them". We see the case cited (BTW, in the Translation it seems that of the statement "עד שמת באותה מיתה", is missing "until he died from this death"). The case of the nevew of Rabbi Yosse Ben Yoezer Ish Tsereda Bereshit Rabba 65, 22, the case or Rabbi Eliezer Ben Dordea Masechet Avoda Zara 17b and the case of the Coves (fuller) Masechet Ketubot 103b

  1. See this post in the paragraph "cases of suicide directed by Teshuva";
  2. See this post in the paragraph "a surprising Gemara in Ketubot" with the note number 4;

The issue is that in some situations for a righteous man, some errors are very painfull and they cannot go on living because of pain. Nobody has suggested that they would commit suicide, or that suicide is a good thing. Suicide in this case is a testimony of pain because remotness from truth. This pain demonstrated that he loved truth. But suicide was a "side effect" . I mean that because of his love of truth, he became felt a moral pain and committed suicide by "Oness" . I added this explanation because of an user feel that at first glance something is self contradictory. the explanation is now clear I hope.

There are cases of suicide because of shame, even if the "suicided" has not commited any error; Berachot 23a:

For a certain student once left his tefillin in a hole adjoining the public way, and a harlot passed by and took them, and she came to the Beth ha-Midrash and said: See what So-and-so gave me for my hire, and when the student heard it, he went to the top of a roof and threw himself down and killed himself.

This was shame only, nothing to do with a problem of Teshuva.

But it seems that the Gemara in Kiddushin shows that Rav Chyia bar Ashi did repent and felt ashamed. The shame was not necessarily, from a logical point of view, linked with teshuva. But he was known as a big Tsadik. Thus, according to the rule of "Kaf zechut" we conclude that he died because shame and pain generated by Teshuva.

The source of dying because of Teshuva is in Gemara Avoda Zara 17b, concerning Eliezer Ben Dordea. Despite that he did not suicide, we see that the pain of the regret generated his dead. Pain can also lead to suicide, a suicide by "Ones" .

suicide if that is the only way to keep from sinning?

--> no

that one opinion allows for suicide

--> wrong

This is an important question, there are several examples of Rabbis that "Teshuva killed them". We see the case cited (BTW, in the Translation it seems that of the statement "עד שמת באותה מיתה", is missing "until he died from this death"). The case of the nevew of Rabbi Yosse Ben Yoezer Ish Tsereda Bereshit Rabba 65, 22, the case or Rabbi Eliezer Ben Dordea Masechet Avoda Zara 17b and the case of the Coves (fuller) Masechet Ketubot 103b

  1. See this post in the paragraph "cases of suicide directed by Teshuva";
  2. See this post in the paragraph "a surprising Gemara in Ketubot" with the note number 4;

For a righteous men, errors may be painfull to the point that they cannot go on living because of pain. Nobody has suggested that they have to suicide, or that suicide is a good option. Suicide in this case is only a testimony of pain generated by remotness from truth. This pain demonstrated that Rav Chyia bar Ashi loved truth. Suicide was due to pain . I mean that because of his love of truth, he became felt a moral pain and committed suicide by "Oness" . I added this explanation because of an user feel that at first glance something is self contradictory. the explanation is now clear I hope.

There are cases of suicide because of shame, even if the "suicided" has not commited any error; Berachot 23a:

For a certain student once left his tefillin in a hole adjoining the public way, and a harlot passed by and took them, and she came to the Beth ha-Midrash and said: See what So-and-so gave me for my hire, and when the student heard it, he went to the top of a roof and threw himself down and killed himself.

This was shame only, the student was clean, nothing to do with a problem of Teshuva.

But it seems that the Gemara in Kiddushin shows that Rav Chyia bar Ashi did repent and felt ashamed. The shame was not necessarily, from a logical point of view, linked with teshuva. But he was known as a big Tsadik. Thus, according to the rule of "Kaf zechut" we conclude that he died because shame and pain generated by Teshuva.

The source of dying because of Teshuva is in Gemara Avoda Zara 17b, concerning Eliezer Ben Dordea. Despite that he did not suicide, we see that the pain of the regret generated his dead. Pain can also lead to suicide, a suicide by "Ones" .

suicide if that is the only way to keep from sinning?

--> no

that one opinion allows for suicide

--> wrong

16 edited body
source | link

This is an important question, there are several examples of Rabbis that "Teshuva killed them". We see the case cited (BTW, in the Translation it seems that of the statement "עד שמת באותה מיתה", is missing "until he died from this death"). The case of the nevew of Rabbi Yosse Ben Yoezer Ish Tsereda Bereshit Rabba 65, 22, the case or Rabbi Eliezer Ben Dordea Masechet Avoda Zara 17b and the case of the Coves (fuller) Masechet Ketubot 103b

  1. See this post in the paragraph "cases of suicide directed by Teshuva";
  2. See this post in the paragraph "a surprising Gemara in Ketubot" with the note number 4;

The issue is that in some situations for a righteous man, some errors are very painfull and they cannot go on living because of pain. Nobody has suggested that they would commit suicide, or that suicide is a good thing. Suicide in this case is a testimony of how many truth was deep within him, how many painful was the remotnesspain because remotness from truth. If truth was a very sensitive issue, this demonstrateThis pain demonstrated that they was great men, buthe loved truth. But suicide was a "side effect" of this good thing. I mean that because of his love of truth, he became felt a moral pain and committed suicide by ones"Oness" . I added this explanation because of an user feel that at first glance something is self contradictory. the explanation is now clear I hope.

There are cases of shamesuicide because of shame, even if the "suicided" has not commited any error; Berachot 23a:

For a certain student once left his tefillin in a hole adjoining the public way, and a harlot passed by and took them, and she came to the Beth ha-Midrash and said: See what So-and-so gave me for my hire, and when the student heard it, he went to the top of a roof and threw himself down and killed himself.

This was shame only, nothing to do with a problem of Teshuva.

But it seems that the Gemara in Kiddushin shows that heRav Chyia bar Ashi did repent and that he felt ashamed. The shame was not necessarily from, from a logical point of view linked, linked with teshuva. But he was known as a big Tsadik and the. Thus, according to the rule of Kaf zechut obviously shows"Kaf zechut" we conclude that he he died because shame and pain generated by Teshuva.

The source of dying because of Teshuva is in Gemara Avoda Zara 17b, concerning Eliezer Ben Dordea. Despite that he did not suicide, we see that the pain of the regret generated his dead. Pain can also lead to suicide, a suicide by "Ones" .

suicide if that is the only way to keep from sinning?

--> no

that one opinion allows for suicide

--> wrong

This is an important question, there are several examples of Rabbis that "Teshuva killed them". We see the case cited (BTW, in the Translation it seems that of the statement "עד שמת באותה מיתה", is missing "until he died from this death"). The case of the nevew of Rabbi Yosse Ben Yoezer Ish Tsereda Bereshit Rabba 65, 22, the case or Rabbi Eliezer Ben Dordea Masechet Avoda Zara 17b and the case of the Coves (fuller) Masechet Ketubot 103b

  1. See this post in the paragraph "cases of suicide directed by Teshuva";
  2. See this post in the paragraph "a surprising Gemara in Ketubot" with the note number 4;

The issue is that in some situations for a righteous man, some errors are very painfull and they cannot go on living. Nobody has suggested that they would commit suicide, or that suicide is a good thing. Suicide in this case is a testimony of how many truth was deep within him, how many painful was the remotness from truth. If truth was a very sensitive issue, this demonstrate that they was great men, but suicide was a "side effect" of this good thing. I mean that because of his love of truth, he became felt a moral pain and committed suicide by ones. I added this explanation because of an user feel that at first glance something is self contradictory. the explanation is now clear I hope.

There are cases of shame, even if the "suicided" has not commited any error; Berachot 23a:

For a certain student once left his tefillin in a hole adjoining the public way, and a harlot passed by and took them, and she came to the Beth ha-Midrash and said: See what So-and-so gave me for my hire, and when the student heard it, he went to the top of a roof and threw himself down and killed himself.

But it seems that the Gemara in Kiddushin shows that he did repent and that he felt ashamed. The shame was necessarily from a logical point of view linked with teshuva. But he was a big Tsadik and the rule of Kaf zechut obviously shows that he died because shame and pain generated by Teshuva.

The source of dying because of Teshuva is in Gemara Avoda Zara 17b, concerning Eliezer Ben Dordea. Despite that he did not suicide, we see that the pain of the regret generated his dead. Pain can also lead to suicide, a suicide by "Ones" .

suicide if that is the only way to keep from sinning?

--> no

that one opinion allows for suicide

--> wrong

This is an important question, there are several examples of Rabbis that "Teshuva killed them". We see the case cited (BTW, in the Translation it seems that of the statement "עד שמת באותה מיתה", is missing "until he died from this death"). The case of the nevew of Rabbi Yosse Ben Yoezer Ish Tsereda Bereshit Rabba 65, 22, the case or Rabbi Eliezer Ben Dordea Masechet Avoda Zara 17b and the case of the Coves (fuller) Masechet Ketubot 103b

  1. See this post in the paragraph "cases of suicide directed by Teshuva";
  2. See this post in the paragraph "a surprising Gemara in Ketubot" with the note number 4;

The issue is that in some situations for a righteous man, some errors are very painfull and they cannot go on living because of pain. Nobody has suggested that they would commit suicide, or that suicide is a good thing. Suicide in this case is a testimony of pain because remotness from truth. This pain demonstrated that he loved truth. But suicide was a "side effect" . I mean that because of his love of truth, he became felt a moral pain and committed suicide by "Oness" . I added this explanation because of an user feel that at first glance something is self contradictory. the explanation is now clear I hope.

There are cases of suicide because of shame, even if the "suicided" has not commited any error; Berachot 23a:

For a certain student once left his tefillin in a hole adjoining the public way, and a harlot passed by and took them, and she came to the Beth ha-Midrash and said: See what So-and-so gave me for my hire, and when the student heard it, he went to the top of a roof and threw himself down and killed himself.

This was shame only, nothing to do with a problem of Teshuva.

But it seems that the Gemara in Kiddushin shows that Rav Chyia bar Ashi did repent and felt ashamed. The shame was not necessarily, from a logical point of view, linked with teshuva. But he was known as a big Tsadik. Thus, according to the rule of "Kaf zechut" we conclude that he died because shame and pain generated by Teshuva.

The source of dying because of Teshuva is in Gemara Avoda Zara 17b, concerning Eliezer Ben Dordea. Despite that he did not suicide, we see that the pain of the regret generated his dead. Pain can also lead to suicide, a suicide by "Ones" .

suicide if that is the only way to keep from sinning?

--> no

that one opinion allows for suicide

--> wrong

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