Timeline for Why is the torah so misleading without the oral law
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22 events
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| Jun 2, 2014 at 11:40 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @Shmuel also you are claiming that Semicha ended long before it actually is stated to have ended. | |
| Jun 2, 2014 at 11:36 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @Shmuel did you look at the Talmud in eruvin? Beit Shammai and Bet Hillel have a whole slew of Arguments, the first occurrence of dissent in such amount in our history, and have no way of determining whom to follow in normative halacha. God says "these and these are the words of the living God, and the halacha follows Beit Hillel". He's saying that both opinions are valid. | |
| Jun 2, 2014 at 9:38 | comment | added | Shmuel | @BabySeal - Poetry, metaphor. It's also compared to flowing water, a tree of life, and an antidote for poison. | |
| Jun 2, 2014 at 9:08 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @Shmuel why then are the fallacies of man called the word of the living God? on Eruvin 13b? | |
| Jun 2, 2014 at 8:12 | comment | added | Shmuel | Based on God-given tradition A tradition which, due to the fallacies of man, has undergone many changes, and been understood differently based on who is analyzing it, etc vs. the direct Word of God. || Just because it was expounded like Chumash doesn't mean it was intended to be, nor that it should be. The Mishna are the short-hand records of a much bigger discussion, a compilation of rulings recorded in their final form long after the rabbis involved had died, subjected to the fallacies of human memory (due to it's Oral nature) - all of which don't apply to the direct Word of God. | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 19:56 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @ray as God said to Moses about "Let us make man" Let them! its worth it to cast such doubts for the sake of us learning lessons. And again with opinions. Why should we sugar coat what happened? I think that part of what makes the Torah so real is its honesty, for better or for worse. | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 19:11 | comment | added | ray | in any event it portrays avraham and sarah as barbaric individuals. what just because the kid laughed you send him out to die? this is the man God chose?? you cant be serious. anyone who reads this will have big doubts as to the authenticity of the torah. it just doesnt make sense. and there are many more examples like this. | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 19:08 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @ray, that is not normative law. It is a narrative of something that happened. Nahmanides says that Abraham and Sarah were punished for how they dealt with Hagar once she got pregnant. People are people. Even Patriarchs were people. They made mistakes. God told Abraham to follow through on it, but He ultimately saved both, so they weren't really sent to die. | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 19:02 | comment | added | ray | are you saying there is nothing wrong with sending a child and his mother to die in the desert because the child laughed? come on. u cant be serious | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 18:41 | history | edited | Baby Seal | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jun 1, 2014 at 18:34 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @ray no. This is subjective. Again the rest of the world lives by an entirely different set of rues than Jews do. If they took the time to actually examine practical Jewish life, they would find that it was not barbaric. I don't see that as an issue. Is it part of your question? I thought you were just asking why its so unclear. I think my Rabbi addresses that nicely, is there another part to the question? | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 18:29 | history | edited | Baby Seal | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jun 1, 2014 at 18:29 | comment | added | ray | i'm not saying eye for an eye is barbaric. but other examples like yishmael and his mother getting banished to die in the desert because he laughed, seems rather odd, dont u think? | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 13:22 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @ray also, is the Pentateuch barbaric by design, or by our perception of it? And if it is barbaric by our perception of it, is it really barbaric? No argument against literal eye-for-eye says "this couldn't be, human rights activists would throw a fit!" | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 13:19 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @Shmuel, also that mishnah is contradictory, as we quote Rabbis Shimon yet we do not deliberate in his favor. That happens all over the Mishnah as well. Also you missed the point of my answer. Perhaps it needs to be more clear. RAbbi Elfenbein was saying that the Oral tradition, based off of the Pentateuch, is oftentimes very different from the Pentateuch's words, which necessitated discussion. Thus, when writing down the oral law, the Rabbis did the same, copying the Pentateuch's unclear often misleading approach. If that makes it clearer, I can edit in. | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 13:15 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @ray you state your opinion, not objective fact. The Pentateuch for the rest of the nations was not meant for practical use. It thus states conceptual ideals. I direct you to wfb's answer. Can you refute my claim or bring evidence for your own? | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 13:11 | comment | added | Baby Seal | @Shmuel you state opinion, not objective fact. I would claim that the Mishnah, being based on the God-given oral tradition, is not merely the work of men, and is thus very appropriately compared to the Pentateuch. I also claim that the Rabbis wrote it to be like the Pentateuch, which is expounded upon in a similar way to the example I gave all over. Can you refute that claim or bring solid evidence for your own? | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 5:43 | comment | added | ray | anyone who has delved into the oral law,i.e. the talmud knows that the mishna is not to be taken at face value. but the written torah was translated to all 70 languages without the oral law in the time of moses, so it should at least not be deceiving and appear barbaric | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 3:19 | comment | added | Shmuel | @DoubleAA Please reread my comment. What was unclear? | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 3:16 | comment | added | Double AA♦ | @Shmuel You can compare them in some ways (eg. both are books). Can you explain why you think the OP's comparison is invalid? | |
| Jun 1, 2014 at 3:07 | comment | added | Shmuel | You cannot compare the Pentateuch, which is the direct Word of God, with the Mishna, which is the work of men. Not to mention the Mishna was written down many decades after the Rabbis said the things that are recorded in it. And there's a big difference between "vague," "misleading," and outright contradictory. | |
| May 30, 2014 at 15:13 | history | answered | Baby Seal | CC BY-SA 3.0 |