Timeline for At a non-kosher restaurant, is sliced raw fish kosher?
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| May 24, 2017 at 4:47 | comment | added | Yerushalmi | @avi It's a shame that your answer is not recognised by the readers who likely have not considered the way treif possibilities play out in sashimi being served. See also CRC's article which mentions some (presumably less creditable and American) establishments would soak the fish in brine for preservation. crcweb.org/kosher_articles/kosher_sushi.php | |
| May 24, 2017 at 4:47 | comment | added | Yerushalmi | @Curiouser An Asian here and Avi is absolutely right in saying that sashimi is 99.9% of time served with charif toppings. For anyone to deny that is to put himself in a bubble. Even if you ask the chef not to serve you the charif toppings, it is another 99.9% chance that you're not the only customer in the restaurant and he's been cutting charif toppings for the others. So, unless you eat at a restaurant which is authentic Japanese plus extremely classy, you cannot be sure that the chef is not cutting charif with your kosher fish, thus rendering your sashimi unkosher. | |
| Dec 5, 2012 at 14:33 | comment | added | juanora | @avi the question is if is possible to eat a fish that has been cut by a non kosher knife.... Maybe have a issue, if the knife is dirty with something charif and then the charif sticks from the knife to the food... | |
| S May 11, 2012 at 18:17 | history | suggested | unforgettableidSupportsMonica | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| May 11, 2012 at 18:16 | review | Suggested edits | |||
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| Feb 26, 2012 at 21:38 | comment | added | yoel | @avi I would never follow advice from a website without checking with my rov first. I switched mainly because I am speaking davka of raw fish, served plain. I have seen it served this way and if not surely you can ask for it. That said I would mark both answers as correct if I could because I think there is merit in being stringent here, mainly because there's no real reason to be soimech on the chef to follow my assumptions. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 18:45 | history | edited | avi | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Feb 26, 2012 at 18:43 | comment | added | avi | @Curiouser Sashimi is a dish of raw fish, without rice, but it is served, and often prepared with davar charif. Perhaps you should look at the pictures of Sashimi on the link he provided again. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 18:39 | comment | added | Curiouser | @ avi: The question said: "For the record, sashimi is raw fish without any rice or other accoutrements." So based on that, there is no heat and no davar charif being cut with the fish at the exact same time. (As I established, even if the knife was previously used for davar charif, the fish cut with it subsequently is still fine, contra your explanation) Therefore, I don't understand the relevance of much of what you wrote; moreover, your post still reflects an incorrect understanding of davar charif. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 18:24 | comment | added | avi | @Curiouser All that you wrote is correct. It's just irrelevant in a place that serves Sashimi. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:44 | comment | added | Curiouser | @ avi: I apologize if you feel I am antagonizing you. I am just trying to help because the way you wrote your answer seems to me to misconstrue the idea of davar charif. The question was about cutting raw fish. Fish is not a davar charif. So therefore you can use a non-kosher knife to cut the fish. There is no dispute on that. If it was a davar charif, then the food would be non-kosher. And according to the chumra of R. Kluger, if the fish was charif, then it could make a knife non-kosher. But you could still use that non-kosher knife to cut non-charif fish, and the non-charif fish would be ok | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:40 | history | edited | avi | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:38 | comment | added | avi | @Curiouser No, the question here is about Sashimi, and I have NEVER seen a plate of sashimi that did not include some dvar charif on the plate. But this is getting ridiculous. Enjoy eating treif food. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:37 | comment | added | Curiouser | @ avi: The question here was about cutting fish. Not fish and a davar charif together. Thus your explanation is confusing and likely still incorrect. The second example of the herring is, again, what I said: that the davar charif (salty herring) absorbs flavors from the knife and plate. But not the reverse! The knife does not become a fish knife! I don't know how many times I can say this: davar charif means the charif food accepts flavor (from a knife, from a plate, etc). But your case: "If the knife cuts an onion, then the knife cuts squid, the knife is no longer kosher" is NOT correct. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:32 | comment | added | avi | @Curiouser It's in my answer, just scroll up and read it. There are two cases, one which you are talking about, a fleishic knife making an onion fleishic, and the one that actually applies to the situation here. A knife cutting charif and unkosher food together. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:30 | comment | added | avi | @Yoel Nobody serves sashimi with just raw fish. It's on a plate, normally served with radishes and other charif vegetables. Which are likely cut by the same knife used to cut the sashimi. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:30 | comment | added | Curiouser | @ avi: Where does the Star K say such a thing? On star-k.org/kashrus/kk-SharpAwareness.htm they say exactly what I said: "For example, if one uses a fleishig knife to slice an onion, even if the knife was clean from any prior residue or grease and the onion was cold, the onion will adopt a fleishig status". Which is the example in Shulchan Aruch that I cited as well. You are mixing things up. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:27 | comment | added | Curiouser | @ avi: If would be nice if you could cite a source for your understanding of davar charif, because it is not in the discussion in Shulchan Aruch, where the example is the one I gave. Your example doesn't make any sense. The onion is charif and absorbs flavor from the knife. But how does that affect what you cut with the knife afterwards? Please look in YD 96. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:25 | history | edited | avi | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:24 | comment | added | avi | @Curiouser I have quoted the Star K on the issue. I don't have anything backwards. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:20 | comment | added | Curiouser | @ yoel: 24 hours is also irrelevant to your question; 24 hours has to do with using a utensil for cooking, not for cold use, as I mentioned below and as is discussed in the Shach YD 91. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:18 | comment | added | Curiouser | @ avi: I recommend you look in the Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 96:1 and review the concept of davar charif, since your answer and comments seem to have it all backwards. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:17 | comment | added | yoel | It seems like the right answer, but are you talking about sushi, which may contain dvarim charifim? I'm talking about sashimi, which is literally just raw fish. To clarify: a knife that has sliced through something charif and something non-kosher together, such that the knife is not kosher, which is then thoroughly cleaned and used to cut raw kosher fish - it is not permitted to use such a knife unless it has gone unused for 24 hours? My understanding was the time factor of 24 hours was only applicable where the utensil was being kashered. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:14 | comment | added | Curiouser | @ avi: I don't believe you are correct. You keep mixing up the order. The common example is a fleishig knife used to cut an onion. Now the onion is fleishig. The knife is the same. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 16:12 | comment | added | avi | @Curiouser The common example is a parve knife, that you use to cut an onion, and cut cold cuts. It's now a fleishic knife. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 15:32 | comment | added | Curiouser | I'm not sure your explanation of a davar charif is correct. Even if we assume the knife is non-kosher (i.e. it was used to cut hot, cooked, non-kosher food), still that non-kosher flavor will not transfer to the raw fish if the knife had not been used in 24 hours, which is the usual chazakah. Davar charif means that if you cut a davar charif with an already non-kosher knife, then the cut food absorbs non-kosher flavor (because it is charif). But davar charif doesn't apply at all in the example you gave with the onion and squid -- I don't see how that is relevant. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 14:01 | comment | added | avi | @Will You've never heard of a Wasabi Roll? Also, if an ingredient is nearby, you have to be concerned that the knife will cut it. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 11:57 | comment | added | user1095 | Wasabi comes as a powder, mixed with water to form a paste. Ginger comes sliced and soaked in packages. I've never seen a sushi chef use his fish knife to cut either. There could be other kashrus problems here, but I don't think that a spicy knife is a serious concern in this case. | |
| Feb 26, 2012 at 10:27 | vote | accept | yoel | ||
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| Feb 26, 2012 at 9:47 | history | answered | avi | CC BY-SA 3.0 |