Timeline for Non-belief in Torah's divinity - Wickedness or Ignorance?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
15 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Feb 13, 2012 at 19:17 | vote | accept | SAH | ||
| Feb 10, 2012 at 21:32 | comment | added | SAH | @Avi-- Thanks for your detailed responses. At the risk of continuing an "extended discussion" in comments, I still want to know...if a tinok shenishba (OR a FFB Jew, for that matter) goes to his grave honestly doubting that the Torah is Gd's will--and never followed it in his lifetime--is he punished for that as an "ignorant" person or a "wicked" person? Your comments suggest the former; the other responder's answer seems to suggest the latter. I'm very curious. Maybe I should re-post the question in these terms? | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 11:03 | comment | added | avi | cont... A person who has concluded their search, is ready to be judged and is less likely to do teshuvah even on their death bed. @SAH | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 11:00 | comment | added | avi | "that means that what I believe must be true." This is a common false analogy. I spoke about following Gd's will, not that one's beliefs are true or not. Just because people who like you are nice to you, does not mean that if someone is mean to you that they don't like you. You are jumping logical leaps of emotion here :) As for point 2. Everyone is judged equally, A Rasha is generally the result of the judgement, not a criteria for judging. My main source on these issues are the midrashim about Acher. A person who is "searching" can always do Teshuvah. A person who has concluded... | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 10:53 | comment | added | SAH | ...a little less harshly than Rasha. Just curious, do you know of any sources that qualify "searching" people as closer to Am Ha'eretz than Rasha? I completely agree that the binary choice is limiting, but I use it under the assumption that one group is judged less harshly by Gd/has more chance of a share in the world to come. I'm interested in where people who are "confused" or "growing" fall on that spectrum too. (@Avi) | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 10:49 | comment | added | SAH | @ Avi I posted a separate question about the am ha'aretz exemption: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/14154/… ... The reason I disagree on point 1 is that it seems solipsistic: "Well, since my life is good, that means that what I believe must be true." What about all the faithful Jews who did not receive so blessings in this world--Jews who had bad lives, or worse? Are they, then, to assume that their faith is incorrect? You see what I'm saying. Re point #2, I hope you're right, because it seems that Am Ha'eretz are at least judged + | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 10:32 | comment | added | avi | @SAH you might want to ask about an Am Ha'aretz being "exempt" as a separate question. I'd love to see the sources for that. | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 10:27 | comment | added | avi | @SAH re: " is rigorous, as opposed to merely expedient. " Agreed, but we are talking about human nature and character traits here(if someone is a rasha or not), not logic and debates. #point 2. I'm not aware of what degree an "am ha'aretz" is exempt. But if someone was actively engaged in exploring paths, they would move from the "Rasha" group into the "Am Ha'eretz" group, assuming that only those two groups existed. Again re point 1: It's fully possible for a person to question if their good life is a test or a punishment of some kind, but that's not normal behavior. | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 10:23 | comment | added | SAH | ..."exempted" from halacha, simply by virtue of believing in something else rather than the mesorah? (@Avi) | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 10:21 | comment | added | SAH | thanks for the clarification. I'm not quite convinced that point #1 ("a person with a good life should see that the community that gave him this good life is acting in Gd's will) is rigorous, as opposed to merely expedient. But more important to me, point #2: are you saying that if someone is actively engaged in exploring paths toward the truth of Gd's will, then for that time they can be exempted from halacha in the same way that an am ha'aretz is "exempt"? (term used loosely of course). And suppose the person explores paths and then chooses another? In that case, can he still be + | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 10:05 | history | edited | avi | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Feb 10, 2012 at 9:58 | history | edited | avi | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 101 characters in body
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| Feb 10, 2012 at 9:56 | comment | added | avi | Sorry, I'll clarify in the answer, but I was using the Kuzari story to show how a non-wicked person would react to uncertainty. I.e. it was two seperate points. 1. A person with a good life should see that the community that gave him this good life is acting in Gd's will, and 2. If a person does still have questions about Gd's will, then they should explore paths and not just reject what they currently know. | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 9:54 | comment | added | SAH | Thanks for this great answer. The only part that lost me a little was the part about the Kuzari and "exploring other options of what Gd's will might be." How does doing so indicate wickedness? Are you saying that the blessings in his Chareidi life ought to be taken as proof that the halachic path is the correct one; that is, the one willed by Gd? | |
| Feb 10, 2012 at 9:29 | history | answered | avi | CC BY-SA 3.0 |