Timeline for Can Earth exist without Heaven?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
25 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Mar 5 at 21:12 | comment | added | Deuteronomy | @RabbiKaii oyy... hard to pass that over 'al regel ahath, and I don't think I've got the kishkes to make a larger treatment of it right now (its been some years since I've spent time thinking deeply about Leibowitz)... but I'm glad to have pointed you in a direction :) | |
| Mar 5 at 16:17 | comment | added | Rabbi Kaii | @Deuteronomy that link is spot on. Care to write a summary-answer? | |
| Mar 5 at 15:09 | comment | added | Yaacov Deane | You should take note that those "scientists", like Kubler-Ross and others who look at near-death experiences closely, say that consciousness, soul, continues even when the body, meaning heart and even primitive brain function ceases completely. This has been demonstrated with surgical resuscitation following brain surgery after draining the body, including the brain of all blood under low temperatures. | |
| Mar 5 at 15:02 | comment | added | Yaacov Deane | You are saying "some scientists", mostly those in the field of AI today, suggest that consciousness, which is loosely defined as "awareness of self", is nothing more than a complex & unique arrangement of data (meaning life experiences). They call this the "soul". This has partial validity in the sense that דבקות is achieved through learning Torah, including for example, the Torah of the Rebbe. That the עצמות of the Rebbe is his teachings, his Torah. But the Rebbe's soul is his מהות. Resurrection is the return of his soul (מהותו) into his reconstituted body (עצמותו). | |
| Mar 5 at 14:34 | comment | added | Deuteronomy | jstor.org/stable/20008091 | |
| Mar 5 at 12:17 | comment | added | Rabbi Kaii | @YaacovDeane very interesting but I am not asking about that. Let me go away from this and reframe the question completely to show why. A scientist today would say that there's no such thing as a soul beyond the body. The body itself produces consciousness and qualia. The aggregation of neural networking in the brain etc. Does Torah claim that this is impossible, a body can't produce consciousness, there has to be a spiritual entity called a soul? Hashem can make a body without a soul, yes, but did He? Are the scientists stupid or are they being intelligent, they just happen to be wrong? | |
| Mar 5 at 12:11 | comment | added | Yaacov Deane | The quantum physics and string theory is the “maths” that describe the עצמות. But like Hawking notes, עצמות is not מהות. That is really what you are asking. מהותו יתברך is transcendent, “outside of” existence. When Hawking described this, he was asked what “that” was. He smiled and said that was like asking what is “north” of the North Pole. A humorous and elegant comment about HaKadosh, baruch Hu. | |
| Mar 5 at 12:00 | comment | added | Rabbi Kaii | @YaacovDeane thanks I still need to find that doc. Still, don't think it is relevant as that could just be an argument that the universe can't exist without Hashem, which is not being challenged here | |
| Mar 5 at 11:54 | comment | added | Yaacov Deane | I remember an interview with Stephen Hawking included in a documentary about the structure of the universe from years ago. Hawking was describing how material existence on a quantum level constantly & continuously winks in & out of existence at different points in space, like a pointillist painting. That is why we perceive material existence as real. Then Hawking noted that “something” keeps pushing material existence to be maintained from outside of that domain. That is המחדש בכל יום תמיד מעשה בראשית. | |
| Mar 5 at 9:15 | vote | accept | Rabbi Kaii | ||
| Mar 3 at 0:14 | comment | added | b a | The Rambam's statement quoted by @Nahum is the simplest statement of his answer to the question, the full explanation is in More Nevuchim 1:69 | |
| Mar 1 at 23:19 | answer | added | N.T. | timeline score: 1 | |
| Mar 1 at 20:21 | comment | added | Turk Hill | @Nahum For Aristotle, forms do not exist even though forms (as ideas) are real in inhering in things (as all things are made up of both matter and form) - just as the soul or mind does not exist, for Aristotle, even though real in being a function of the body. The Aristotelian conception of God is as the form of the universe. | |
| Mar 1 at 19:19 | answer | added | Turk Hill | timeline score: 2 | |
| Mar 1 at 18:39 | answer | added | Clint Eastwood | timeline score: 0 | |
| Mar 1 at 17:40 | comment | added | Nahum | Materialist science, or scientism, does not believe in a platonic realm. Plato and Moses are similar to each other insofar as they posit that the phenomenological world is not the true and real world but rather that there exists a world beyond the physical one which is the primary and real one. | |
| Mar 1 at 17:05 | comment | added | Rabbi Kaii | @Nahum, thanks for clarifying. Once again, I am precluding that philosophy from the question (unless you bring a Torah source that agrees that the Platonic world = Olam HaRuchni - note, that would defeat the question, because it would say that actually scientists do believe in an Olam Haruchni, which will be a weird answer but happy to consider it). | |
| Mar 1 at 16:52 | comment | added | Nahum | Math is descriptive. Platonic forms are the true underlying essence of stuff. | |
| Mar 1 at 16:40 | comment | added | Rabbi Kaii | @Nahum thanks for helping me sharpen the question. I will state here that my question precludes both of your previous points. The first is precluded by the fact that I do not think scientists and materialists nowadays who do not believe in ruchnius, think that mathematical forms are ruchni, and the second is precluded by the final paragraph | |
| Mar 1 at 16:03 | comment | added | Nahum | רמב"ם יסודי התורה א':ב' ואם יעלה על הדעת שהוא אינו מצוי, אין דבר אחר יכול להימצאות. If one would imagine that He does not exist, no other being could possibly exist. | |
| Mar 1 at 15:59 | comment | added | Nahum | Platonists are not materialists, they assert the existence of an intangible and undetectable realm. A platonic world and a spiritual world seem to be closely related if not synonymous. | |
| Mar 1 at 15:53 | comment | added | Rabbi Kaii | @Nahum Thank you. To keep it simple, I've included that in the "maths that governs the rules", like the materialists. So can the world exist with only the physical and the platonic, or does it need a spiritual element as well. Or even simpler: are materialists making a fundamental mistake, or are they simply lacking information? | |
| Mar 1 at 15:48 | comment | added | Nahum | As a sweeping general statement I would say that Plato held that there is a higher realm of forms which is truly real which kabbalists typically adopt with Aristotle arguing that form is not separate from matter which is what the rationalist rishonim seem to adopt | |
| Mar 1 at 15:26 | history | edited | Rabbi Kaii | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 5 characters in body
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| Mar 1 at 15:08 | history | asked | Rabbi Kaii | CC BY-SA 4.0 |