Timeline for Why is it believed that Angels spoke with Moses at Sinai, when he spoke with God 'face to face'?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
30 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Jul 29, 2022 at 4:56 | vote | accept | Michael16 | ||
| Jun 15, 2022 at 18:27 | history | edited | Michael16 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Jewish early sources
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| Jun 15, 2022 at 17:38 | comment | added | Michael16 | Roben what is dubbura? and what is this written in Heb? Here too (as in v. 9) in spite of the fact that the text states “face to face” the Targum is: ומתמלל עם משה. Rashi on the verse. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 17:15 | comment | added | robev | You're "sure there must be many", so why can't you find any? Again, you only brought Josephus, who wasn't a theologian. It's like bringing a source on a Christian topic by a Christian biologist...I don't know who Peskit is. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a Jewish source, not a source by a Jew. It's presumptuous to say I'm ignorant of Jewish tradition and belief, and quite frankly, out of line. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 17:14 | comment | added | Michael16 | Shmuel and Roven, can you tell what is Dibbura? And the Lord spake with Mosheh word for word,- the voice of the Word (dibbura) was heard: Targum Exodus33:11. ? Is it same as Memra? | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 17:08 | comment | added | Michael16 | Roben, I don't think you can satisfy your criteria when you want only specific sources. I am sure there must be many. I quoted many sources that talk about the presence of angels at Sinai, but only few mentions the direct thing as mentioned in Josephus, Peskit, etc, the fact is quite implicit. You are ignorant of the Jewish tradition/beliefs. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 16:58 | comment | added | robev | "why everyone (ancient not you) believed it was given through angels" you have failed to demonstrate that anyone believed it was through angels. Thus the confusion. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 16:54 | comment | added | Michael16 | Shmuel, my favourite website from which I copied to reply to roben is also full of Benjamin Somer, whom your site is quoting biblestudying.net/history-of-judaism5.html He is basically a Christian apologist his books are proving Trinity in the OT. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 16:45 | comment | added | Shmuel | See: thetorah.com/article/the-lord-spoke-to-moses-does-god-speak | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 15:46 | comment | added | Michael16 | Dude, I agree, I don't believe he couldn't have spoken directly. The Angel or God makes no difference, this is why I was puzzled as to why people say angels gave the covenant. There must be some traditional reason behind this saying, but it could also be incidental to the context, if you want to intentionally compare & show Abraham's promise as superior then you could say God directly and alone gave the promise, as opposed to the covenant on Sinai of angels and mediator-Moses. This would be a midrashic interpretation. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 15:39 | comment | added | Dude | what makes you think that Moshe could not have on different occasions spoken to G-d directly and on others spoken to angels? Angels being present for the giving of the Torah is also not a contradiction to Moshe speaking to Hashem | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 14:45 | comment | added | Michael16 | There was only a confusion as to when it clearly says he talked to him face to face, then why everyone (ancient not you) believed it was given through angels. But in Abraham's promise covenant only God spoke, so there was no angel and agreement with Abraham being a mediator as with Moses in the Sinai. The confusion came from Galatians 3:19-20 with the same point as I explained, that Abraham's promise is unconditional, and Sinai covenant doesn't cancel the promise covenant. Law was valid only until the coming of the promise (Messiah). Law is not eternal. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 14:37 | comment | added | robev | Nothing insecure here; you just failed to clarify exactly what you're asking and what's motivating the question. I still don't get it. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 14:03 | answer | added | Michael16 | timeline score: -3 | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 13:18 | history | edited | robev | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
deleted 3 characters in body
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| Jun 15, 2022 at 13:18 | comment | added | robev | @Michael16 you've failed to bring a single biblical teaching which contradicts Hashem speaking to Moshe face to face. Please clarify where you're coming from or this question will inevitably get closed. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 8:13 | comment | added | N.T. | Herod is not an authority on Jewish belief, to say the least. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 7:37 | history | edited | Harel13 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Organized format for clarity, added source links.
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| Jun 15, 2022 at 6:47 | answer | added | robev | timeline score: 4 | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 6:36 | comment | added | robev | To clarify, you're asking on the Pesiq. Rab. 21 which says that the angels gave the Jews the Torah? Since the Torah says Hashem spoke to Moshe directly? If so, just cut everything else out. | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 6:15 | review | Close votes | |||
| Jun 19, 2022 at 19:01 | |||||
| Jun 15, 2022 at 6:14 | history | edited | Michael16 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Edited source
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| Jun 15, 2022 at 5:59 | comment | added | robev | @Michael16 none of your examples are relevant and pose any contradiction to Moshe speaking face to face with G-d. Can you justify your question? | |
| Jun 15, 2022 at 3:41 | history | edited | Michael16 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Sources
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| Jun 14, 2022 at 19:02 | history | edited | robev | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
edited title
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| Jun 14, 2022 at 18:57 | comment | added | Shmuel | Also, related: judaism.stackexchange.com/a/26127/27180 | |
| Jun 14, 2022 at 18:56 | history | edited | Shmuel | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
improved title slightly added tags and added source to Sefaria.
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| Jun 14, 2022 at 18:51 | comment | added | Shmuel | The Rabbeinu Bahya interprets this verse- פנים אל פנים- face to face- to mean that G-d spoke to Moshe Rabbeinu in a manner a friend talks to another friend. He then further explains "The meaning of the entire line then would be: “and G-d communicated (spoke) with Moses in a similar fashion to people who speak to each other, i.e.”face to face.” It means there is no intermediary between the speaker and the one being addressed". | |
| Jun 14, 2022 at 18:02 | comment | added | robev | "Why is it believed that the angels or angel spoke to Moses, as God's mediator" by whom? Where? | |
| Jun 14, 2022 at 18:01 | history | asked | Michael16 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |