Timeline for Who opposes saying the Piyut מכניסי רחמים?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
10 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Sep 22, 2019 at 21:29 | comment | added | Loewian | ...ועם כל זה הוא דבר שאין ראוי רק שיהיה מכניסי רחמים תפלה על דרך שאמרו ז"ל שיתפלל האדם שיהיו הכל מאמצים את כחו ולא יהיה לו צרים, ויהיה מתפלל אצל הש"י ע"ז, ולכך מה שמבקש מכניסי רחמים הוא תפלתו אל הש"י כי מכניסי רחמים יכניסו רחמינו. ולפי זה ראוי להגיה מכניסי רחמים יכניסו רחמינו, משמיעי תפלה ישמיעו תפלתינו, מכניסי דמעה יכניסו דמעותינו, ולכך ישתדלו וירבו תחינה ובקשה וכך ראוי שהתפלה היא אל הש"י שמכניסי רחמים יכניסו רחמינו. - sefaria.org/… | |
| Sep 22, 2019 at 21:29 | comment | added | Loewian | If the Maharal advocates anything, he advocates amending the text to make it clear that G-d is the One being addressed, and not His agents. He explicitly that it is "unfitting" to recite the piyut as a "pekuda": וי"ל כי מה שאנו אומרים מכניסי רחמים הכניסו וכו' אין זה בקשה כלל רק שהאדם מצוה כך למלאכים שהם מכניסים התפלה להכניס התפלה לפני הש"י, ויש כח לאדם לצוות למלאכים שהם ממונים על זה שיביאו תפלתו לפני הש"י... | |
| Sep 22, 2019 at 16:58 | comment | added | mbloch | @Loewian I understood that requesting assumes the person you request from has power, while ordering him assumes he is an agent | |
| Sep 22, 2019 at 16:09 | comment | added | Loewian | Why would a "pekuda" be that much better than a "bakasha"? If anything, it sounds at least similar to how Chazal have interpreted kishuf- "makchish pamalya shel maala" - overriding the heavenly order. If one cannot plead with the King's (deterministic) agents, e.g. b/c of one's direct relationship with the King, is it more respectful of the King to give them direct orders while standing in front of their Master? | |
| Sep 22, 2019 at 16:02 | comment | added | Loewian | I'm not sure what you mean by a pekuda - IMSMC, the Maharal in Nethiv HaAvoda only allows inclusion of the poem if it is amended to the third person - "... yachnisu ... yashmiu ... " - "...have [Your angels of mercy enter our supplications]... etc., such that one is directly addressing G-d, and not His angels, and poetically praying that He receive our prayers from the deterministic means He has created for receiving them. | |
| Sep 22, 2019 at 14:17 | comment | added | Yaacov Deane | @mbloch How does this approach deal with the subject and problem of issuing an order to an angel? This is often referred to in English as ‘binding the angel’ and is generally considered prohibited in the present. | |
| Sep 22, 2019 at 10:03 | comment | added | mbloch | @ba Wonderful. Glad it converges | |
| Sep 22, 2019 at 10:01 | comment | added | b a | I quoted and translated the Maharal that you heard from the source here | |
| Sep 22, 2019 at 8:18 | history | edited | msh210♦ | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Sep 22, 2019 at 6:01 | history | answered | mbloch | CC BY-SA 4.0 |